Can science and religion coexist peacefully? - (Nov/26/2010 )
Well when you post links and share videos here, how do others know that this is evidence of "the truth"? Actually I'm too ignorant for religion and the hstory of religions to judge here. But a splendiferous looking youtube video of unkown source won't convince people here. And my opinion is that there is often no final truth, even if a religion claims this (a topic which leads to conflicts between science and religion and surely needs discussion).
And surely there are as many interested and "brainy" people in muslim countries as in other countries and great scientists work there. Hopefully they also have the same opportunites to develop individually and to do freely what they want as in other countries (but some of the links were helpful for me here, thanks).
Hello bob1
You said "Nothing new there, lots of people change religion and/or belief every day, even becoming religious while being scientist is relatively common."
I agree with you , people can change their religion and beliefs . But some people accepts beliefs without any evidence to proof their believes. other people accepts beliefs and faith that rely on logic , evidence to proof , and challenge like Quran's challenge .
"I'm in no doubt about the contribution of the Muslim world to the enlightenment in mediaeval times, and their current contributions, so I'm not disputing most of what is said, just that some of it is mis-represented. For instance, it is well known that the rudiments of calculus were around in the time of the Egyptian empire (circa 2000 bc), which is well before the Islamic schools came into being. IN addition, the aquaducts in Cordoba (I think that was the city mentioned) were roman aquaducts... What was presented was that these were Muslim contributions to the city, which they weren't. I'm not going to watch the video again, but you should check the information presented for yourself if you want to be a scientist - even wikipedia will give you the basics here! Critical thinking and scepticism are key to being a scientist."
If you could please mention your references which deny the information in that video ?
Thank you for advising me. I am doing my best to check the information presented here not only for myself but also for others. So I share scientist , scholars , and experts explaining. Even if I do my best to check the information , I may do mistakes. And my conscience and Allah fearing which I ask Allah for every time in my prayers will lead me to correct my mistakes and be thankful for the person who made the correction.
If I want to be a scientist I will never use Wikipedia to do a serious scientific research , because Wikipedia is not a reliable source even for basics information. I do not want to mislead myself and others. I suggest you when you chose to read basics information from Wikipedia also look for other reliable sources like scholars, experts , and scientists sources . who have knowledge about their fields in science and religion such as Islam so you can find accurate information.
What's Wrong with Wikipedia? Harvard Guide to using Sources
http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page346376
"Critical thinking and scepticism are key to being a scientist."
I agree with your statement . we can see for example , Rene Descartes , who is a famous French philosopher and scientist . He called the Father of Modern Philosophy . He started with the premise of doubt. He decided to doubt everything . This lead him to reach certainty in the Creator.
His famous philosophical statement is " I think , therefore I am "
"I think, therefore I am proves that I exist, but I am an imperfect, flawed mortal man. If I were my own creator, naturally I would have made myself perfect. This proves that I did not create myself, and if I did not, than who did? God. "Rene Descartes
"I have a conception of what perfection is, though I am not perfect. Okay, so where does this idea of perfection come from? Not from me, of course. After all, I'm imperfect, and perfection cannot come from something as so patently imperfect as I. So there must be a perfect being, and that is God." Rene Descartes
and we agree that critical thinking key to be a scientist so , I would like to recommend you to see : Scientists critique Darwins theory with using scientific evidence.
A Critique of Darwinist Icons (Icons of Evolution)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=te3aShKST1A
"Any argument that Islam was started as a major religion before the Qur'an is spurious. there is absolutely no proof of it"
I would ask you what is your evidences which support your saying ? so we can consider it as a fact not a wrong claim?
Can you do the challenge of the Quran which is the final universal message ?
( و إن كنتم في ريب مما نزلنا على عبدنا فأتوا بسورة من مثله وادعو شهداءكم من دون الله إن كنتم صادقين )
" And if you ( Arab pagans , Jews, and Christians ) are in doubt concerning that which we have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave ( Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم ) , then produce a Surah ( chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses ( supporters and helpers ) besides Allah , if you are truthful." Surah Al- Baqarah. The Noble Quran English translation of the meanings and commentary.
Can you refute non Muslim and Muslim Scientists from different scientific majors who agree with the scientific facts in the Quran , which supported by scientific evidences which is exist in our life ? Can you refute other challenges of Quran such as linguistic Challenge ?
The Qurans Challenge : A Literary & Linguistic Miracle
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/the-inimitable-quran/
Your judgment about Islam cannot be fair and true , if you cannot refute the evidence of Islam such as Quran . The Quran which contains ayat such as to every nation was sent a Guide or a messenger 35:24
In addition , i would like to share examples (from other sources ) beside Quran. These examples proofs that Islam started before the Quran . Islam which means surrender, submission , obedience , sincerity and peace with Allah .
Scholars , who have knowledge in their fields explain these examples with evidences.
1- What Did Jesus Really Say ?
The great messenger of God , Jesus , says: And this is life eternal , that they might know you the only true God , and Jesus Christ , whom you have sent John 17 : 3
http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_what_did_jesus_really_say.pdf
2- Monotheism in Hinduism Scriptures.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9lVfudQkw
3- The Concept of Monotheism Since Ancient Times in Ancient Egypt & Hinduism .
http://www.submission.info/perspectives/monotheism/monotheism_since_ancient_times.html
4- Prophet Musa (AS) And Seas Splitting in two. Musa & Pharaohs who know the concept of monotheism.
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_02.html
5- Traces of monotheism in paganism tribes. where it comes from ?
6- The teaching of Gautama Buddha & the concept of monotheism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IvCU-4TE-ec
More details :
You can see :
The last messenger mentioned In Buddhist Scriptures
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yARdxrH2Fc
The last messenger in Judaism, Christian and Hinduism Scriptures - Dr. Zakir Naik
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRw25KZG0vE
What the Bible Says About Muhammad ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HzPbS0RCvBE
Jewish Professor Admits All Prophets Were Muslim
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mlLZKUuc2jk
You can do your research on these religions from other specialist sources and look for the evidences if you want to be sure. So you can learn about monotheism in other religions before Quran revelation.
"and it could equally be argued the same for any religion (if you were posting this about Christianity I would argue the same, although there I would argue re prior to Jesus). As a matter of fact, like many mono-theistic religions, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which makes it on a par with Judaism, Christianity etc, and that is all that can be said."
I agree with Christianity and Judaism have the concept of monotheism which is also in Islam. But these religions are different from each other, they are not equal . Therefore you cannot say Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which makes it on a par with Judaism, Christianity etc
To know why ?
1- Pure Monotheism of Islam vs Pagan beliefs and Superstitions.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C3oR3N8VqCk
2- The Nullifiers of Islamic Monotheism 1
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/138092/the-nullifiers-of-islamic-monotheism-i
3- Fate of non- Muslim and those who never heard about Islam
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=86756
4- Was Muhammad the author of the Quran ?
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/134499/was-muhammad-the-author-of-the-quran
Good luck
Hello hobglobin
You said "Well when you post links and share videos here, how do others know that this is evidence of "the truth"?
They can know these evidences which shows the truth of Islam and science, if they see the references which provide scientific websites such as NASA . For example , you can see these articles :
1-Seven Scientific Facts Testify that Mohamed is Sincere.
There are 26 references you can check. such as : A NASA Landsat composite of Saudi Arabia, www.geology.com. The CIA World's Facts. Combined climate and carbon-cycle effects of large-scale deforestation, Department of Global Ecology, Carnegie Institution, Stanford, February 24, 2007. Richard Kithil, Fundamentals of Lightning Protection, National Lightning Safety Institute, www.lightningsafety.com. Yogesh Chander, Kuldip Kumar, Sagar M. Goyal and Satish C. Gupta, Antibacterial Activity of Soil-Bound Antibiotics, American Society of Agronomy, Crop Science Society of America, and Soil Science Society of America, 2005.
http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/secrets-of-quran-a-sunnah/132-seven-scientific-facts-testify-that-mohamed-is-sincere
2- The collapse of the universe.
"Most scientific studies point out that the universe had expected therefore it will collapse. The Holy Quran mentions this fact clearly in several verses" Abduldaem Al-Kaheel
http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/344--the-collapse-of-the-universe-
References:
1. Universe Reborn Endlessly in New Model of the Cosmos, www.nationalgeographic.com, April 25, 2002.
2.http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news/newsid_2347000/2347651.stm
3. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news/newsid_727000/727678.stm
4.http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/sci_tech/newsid_2007000/2007441.stm
Also they can search about the scientists and scholars who have knowledge that allowed them to proof the scientific facts which is in the Quran . who use the scientific evidence which is exist in our life.
"Actually I'm too ignorant for religion and the hstory of religions to judge here."
We can be Learner and seeker of knowledge about religion , history of religions , and the world if we ask , read , listening , and be open minded to people who have knowledge such as different scientists ,scholars , and experts who are from all over the world . and by analyzing information that we take it from reliable sources and specialized sources from internet and books we can learn the truth and remove misconceptions.
Misconceptions which we may have because we ask wrong people who do not know ! For example , if I have question in math I will ask math teacher not physics teacher. because physics teacher may give me wrong answer! or say something without proof or say opinions which is different from facts.
The same If I want to learn about religion like Islam , I will ask teachers, scientists ,scholars , and experts in Islam to find accurate answers . In addition , we can learn outside of school if we are open minded because it is true that " Learning is lifelong process peter" Drucker.
And for me, seeking knowledge an obligation upon Muslim. " the superiority of the one who has knowledge over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body." The Prophet explaining. Knowledge in Islam and how to seek it
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/137288/knowledge-in-islam-and-how-to-seek-it
"and say : My lord! Increase me in Knowledge"{ Quran, 20;114} Amen
"But a splendiferous looking youtube video of unkown source won't convince people here.
If there is unknown sources, could you show me ?
I mention the references so we can see it to be sure about the information.
"And my opinion is that there is often no final truth, even if a religion claims this (a topic which leads to conflicts between science and religion and surely needs discussion)."
With my respect to you , your opinion is not true . If you do not learn about Sciences and Islam, you can not give fair judgment and accurate statement in this case.
"And surely there are as many interested and "brainy" people in muslim countries as in other countries and great scientists work there. Hopefully they also have the same opportunites to develop individually and to do freely what they want as in other countries (but some of the links were helpful for me here, thanks)."
Welcome any time And Good Luck.
Shahad on Sun Apr 19 19:50:47 2015 said:
But the point here is that belief is illogical - the evidence for a god (or gods for that matter) is not present. So far from scientific principles the universe can be explained by testable hypotheses that hold true for the observable universe, this by logic refutes the presence of any godHello bob1
You said "Nothing new there, lots of people change religion and/or belief every day, even becoming religious while being scientist is relatively common."
I agree with you , people can change their religion and beliefs . But some people accepts beliefs without any evidence to proof their believes. other people accepts beliefs and faith that rely on logic , evidence to proof , and challenge like Quran's challenge .
a 2 minute google search will get you the information you need on the aqueducts. As to calculus try the ones here:http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/References/The_rise_of_calculus.htmlIf you could please mention your references which deny the information in that video ?
Thank you for advising me. I am doing my best to check the information presented here not only for myself but also for others. So I share scientist , scholars , and experts explaining. Even if I do my best to check the information , I may do mistakes. And my conscience and Allah fearing which I ask Allah for every time in my prayers will lead me to correct my mistakes and be thankful for the person who made the correction.
Wikipedia is not a good source in itself -always check the references supplied at the end of the page! However, with this in mind, it can be used as a basic source to gain the rudiments of many topics.If I want to be a scientist I will never use Wikipedia to do a serious scientific research , because Wikipedia is not a reliable source even for basics information. I do not want to mislead myself and others. I suggest you when you chose to read basics information from Wikipedia also look for other reliable sources like scholars, experts , and scientists sources . who have knowledge about their fields in science and religion such as Islam so you can find accurate information.
What's Wrong with Wikipedia? Harvard Guide to using Sources
http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page346376
That's one scientist (not the plural), who is widely considered to be wrong. The evidence he presents is not evidence of lack of Darwinian evolution (e.g. cambrian explosion was a long long time prior to the evolution of modern phyla such as animals, so can't be used to deny evolution, especially as some of the forms have persisted to the modern day), he is correctly critiquing the presentation of evolution in science education."Critical thinking and scepticism are key to being a scientist."
and we agree that critical thinking key to be a scientist so , I would like to recommend you to see : Scientists critique Darwins theory with using scientific evidence.
A Critique of Darwinist Icons (Icons of Evolution)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=te3aShKST1A
I could equally ask you for your proofs that Islam was a major religion before The Prophet (pbuh)...note that I won't accept an answer that "the Qu'ran says so" - the Bible doesn't mention Islam, neither do any of the other works of similar age that I am aware of (Roman writings, Greek writings, Egyptian...), yet a lot of these colonized the areas which would now be considered the heart of Islam. Zoroastrianism appears to have been the first of the monotheistic religions from that region."Any argument that Islam was started as a major religion before the Qur'an is spurious. there is absolutely no proof of it"
I would ask you what is your evidences which support your saying ? so we can consider it as a fact not a wrong claim?
Note that what we are asking here is about SCIENCE, not the vailidity of any religion... Also note that we were talking about the contribution of Islam to science, and you posted a video that mis-represented some facts. The Islamic schools and technology didn't appear until well into the 700's (with Harun Al-Rashid I think), so artefacts that are approximately 500 years older than that can't be easily claimed as Muslim I would say.
I'm not judging Islam at all, I'm judging your interpretation of scientific fact...If you want to be a scientist and come on a science forum, be prepared with facts, not supposition. Note that many people have done exactly the challenge you set out above, the most famous being Scientology (L Ron Hubbard), The Flying Spaghetti Monster (its a parody, but some people follow), and Jedi (George Lucas, not a parody and not intended to be a religion, but people are still people...).Can you do the challenge of the Quran which is the final universal message ?
( و إن كنتم في ريب مما نزلنا على عبدنا فأتوا بسورة من مثله وادعو شهداءكم من دون الله إن كنتم صادقين )
" And if you ( Arab pagans , Jews, and Christians ) are in doubt concerning that which we have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave ( Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم ) , then produce a Surah ( chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses ( supporters and helpers ) besides Allah , if you are truthful." Surah Al- Baqarah. The Noble Quran English translation of the meanings and commentary.
Can you refute non Muslim and Muslim Scientists from different scientific majors who agree with the scientific facts in the Quran , which supported by scientific evidences which is exist in our life ? Can you refute other challenges of Quran such as linguistic Challenge ?
Your judgment about Islam cannot be fair and true , if you cannot refute the evidence of Islam such as Quran . The Quran which contains ayat such as to every nation was sent a Guide or a messenger 35:24