The Origins of Synthetic Life. - Rambling... (May/31/2010 )

gt_ameya on Sun Apr 10 07:04:43 2011 said:

The money driven aspect has a good side (what you said) but a bad one too: if big pharma companies dont see money in the future for a certain drug.. they dont develop it...
A good (sad) example is the fact that almost no new antibiotics are being tested/developed because there is no money in it.

Isn't that a good thing, that we are not looking at treating with antibiotics alone. We have finally realised that they are just short term measures and now we can explore alternative methods of treatment.

gt_ameya on Wed Apr 20 08:24:15 2011 said:

Yes and no.

You are right: we need other treatments too. However: we dont have enough new antibiotics (and/or alternatives) so we are going to face big problems in the future...


+ you are using an argument that shouldnt be one: the fact that we now have problems with resistance it due to the overuse of the antibiotics (esp india is a problemcase..) .. If we didnt do this, we wouldnt have this problem in the first time.
Its weird how medical doctors (went to school for years and years) still give patients antibiotics for things like the flu.

+ you mention that we look for alternative treatments rather then using (the classic) antibiotics, but these alternatives have also only been in the spotlight due to the resistance problems.
(and some of them: we did know for years and years and still: there arent really researched a lot)

And about those alternatives: its taking too long because there is less money it in... its the same story as with the (new) antibiotics==> there isnt enough money in it .. even with the upcoming problems of resistance a lot of the big companies still dont want to invest it in... They dont see it as a profitcase.. (wich I find strange since the resistance will be a problem, I can imagine they would make a lot of money with a new type of drug).

How exactly are you supporting the use of alternative medicines, if you are bent upon using anibiotics? The very shortage of effective antibiotics, should drive us to alternative methods.

And the overuse of antibiotics in India is blown out of proportion. Yes, we like our paracetamol, balms and oil alike, but Medical doctors dont go shooting antibiotics over hospital roofs here...
If you are talking after reading the Lancet study as well, I would like to point out that nosocomial infections are prevalent everywhere... not alone in India. Also, many other genes confer anitbiotic resistance to bacteria, other than NDM-1, so why aren't they problem cases too?

With increasing difficulties, the industry will turn to alternative therapies. Its just that they will pave the way for commercialization first and then travel the road.

gt_ameya on Wed Apr 20 11:40:44 2011 said:

Its not a secret that the nosocomial infections are worse in India... The resistance bacteria or the protein (the gene for it) comes primeraly from India.
(origin of the gene is south asia according to the research)





Nosocomial infections happens everywhere, but the problem is: in India we see more resistant bacteria then in other countries and that is the problem! (the infections on itself not, well they are but in this story less important).
+ if you are from India, you should know that there are still a lot of dirty places (hospitals) where the medical care is not really good/clean.
(I know that most hospitals are doing a good job, but you cant deny that there are still problems .... and not only with medical care, but in general with environmental problems ... although, european countries and usa play a role in this too: sending waste to india etc..., but this is a much larger problem in the end then).



Its for example allready very clear that the medical tourism to India is becoming a big problems. If you look at the problems in the UK==> almost all due to medical tourism. All the problem cases due to resitant bacteria are almost all related to India (people that came for India with the bacterium, holding the gene for resistance)
(+ and this is overlooked often: off course there are more cases of this bacteria in India==> its normal, medical tourism is high in india.. so sure, we get more cases from India then for example africa ...)


India has been using (and still is in some places) too much antibiotics.

And why is the NDM-1 a big problems and the others not? Very simple: NDM-1 offers much more protection then other protein... Other proteins only work against a few antibioticclasses, NDM-1 against many more.



And yes, its not only India , Bangladesh and Pakistan play an important role too. And yes, India is going to review certain treatments (btw: this allready started in 2009/2010, so the governement knows there are things going wrong...)
But for example: its not a secret that in the pultry/fishindustrie in India antibiotics are still used massivly.. (altough changing now===> they didnt even have limits on antibiotic use before 2011 or 2010-2011!!!!, there was an article about this in Times of India by Dr Ranjit Roychoudhury and Professor Randeep Guleria).

And yes, India isnt the only country doing things wrong. China is also doing things wrong.. the thing is:china is "more closed" , so not much information is gathered from china..
Same with african countries: major problems there too.. but less research, so less information.
The problem with India is the medical tourism etc... and the "industrial revolution" over there.
(eg: roses that are farmed over there and that are poluting many km² of fresh water ... same with the plastics ... but as said: the problem goes deeper then just India itself.. europe and usa etc play a major role in this too)

BTW: I never said that the biggest problems are caused by medical doctors prescribing antibiotics... like said: fishindustry for example plays a major role too.


And what do you mean with "How exactly are you supporting the use of alternative medicines, if you are bent upon using anibiotics?" Killing bacteria or getting rid off a bacterial infection is done bj antibiotics.. so I dont get the idea? You mean other medicins that are not antibiotics but work against bacteria? I dont understand what you mean by this?

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

Please send me the research paper for this.

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

Pito, so all clean hospitals have no nosocomial infections???

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

For this, I find no basis. Like you said, Medical tourism is high, so the numbers will be high. But you cant say all antibiotic resistant bacteria originate from India or Asia or America for that matter.

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

Look up Burkholderia, is that Indian as well?

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

These are just patronizing statements.

pito on Wed Apr 20 14:53:15 2011 said:

You did say that antibiotics are prescribed on a regular basis by Medical doctors (who spend years in medical school... )
What is your idea of alternative medicines? Do you think that the only way of ending infections is using antibiotics?

I will agree that central healthcare in India needs improvement, training and regulation but convicting a nation/ region for "granting antibiotic resistance" is like being a 10 yr old and saying "I dint do it, He did it". Modern Medicine being practised around the world is Western in origin, so should I blame the technology transfer methods adopted in the first place for all nosocomial infections? Why play this blame game, when we know that we all are responsible.

Our basic problem has been not understanding the potential of nature itself. Like Venter, who made synthetic DNA, but could not put it in a man-made cell, we are still too naive about how things work around us and within us.

Did you read the lancet paper?

It answers a few of your questions.. like the non prescription use of antibiotics....
The link between England and India... This is not a coincidence.

And about the medical tourism:
NDM-1 Gene Spreading to Multiple Bacteria Species, Making Them Antibiotic-Resistant
Medical visas mark growth of Indian medical tourism
Medical tourism and New Delhi metallo β- lactamase 1- A concern and threat


I am not saying India is the only country to blame, but its clear there are major problems with sanitation in India.. A lot of the people are living in very dirty situations... (and yes thats not only in India the case, but India is more developed, has more money, has more oppertunities to handle things.. but it fails and a lot has to do with for example the caste system or the lack of rules , or not following them)

Like I said before: the use of antibiotics in fish/poultry for ages without a limit, the roses that are grown and the polution due to it. The industry thats poluting, tha plastics....

About the "so all clean hospitals have no nosocomial infections???" In every hospital its possible to have infections yes. In clean ones less and the change of having a superbug is smaller.

You cant deny the fact there are many very dirty hospitals in India. The system with the different castes is also making things more difficult.
Whats your opinion then on the fact that cows defecate on streets and it stays there , same with garbage trown on the street.. water that is poluted .. Dead rats on the street ....
Major efforts are being made , I agree, but still a lot has to be done. And yes, this is not only the fault of India, Europe and USA play a role in this too.


And I never said all resistance bearing bacteria come from India or Azia.. But its no secret that a lot of the problem cases come from these countries.
Another example: the bird flu.... Why do you think it comes from Azia.. its because of the way how they handle their poultry...
The government has not the same strict rules in using antibiotics for example.
In China (like in India) they still treat fish with massive amounts of antibiotics.

And how do you think you can end a bacterial infection without the use of a antibiotic substance?
I really dont understand your point. Give me an example ? it the end it all turns down on having a certain substance that kills the bacteria? (or weakens them)
Or do you mean we need to find substances that are antibiotics, but dont come from fungi or bacteria?

Or do you really believe in the more alternative therapy like putting "jars" on your back and making them vacuum so they stick on your back? Or the "trowing up" therapy used in India to "clean" the body?

And about the technology transfer: there is this transfer yes, but how its used is up to the receiver and the receiver has to take care of the propper judgement and thats where it goes wrong: still using too much antibiotics etc.. (like said before: treating fish with it... or poultry or...)
Non prescripted antibiotica is easy to get in India....

And there is no blame game... there are simple facts and those facts need to be taken in care.. India has allready started doing this by setting limits on how much antibiotica can be used in fish or poultry.. but it still has a long way to go.

Pito,

I think you are making yup your mind on the basis of a One Paper and some documentaries you saw about India. I do agree to the fact that sanitation in India is not up to the global standards and that will definitely lead to more diseases. But then you cant say that majority of antibiotic resistance bacteria originate here/ or the problems start in India.


MRSA, Britain, 1961
Penicillin-Resistant Enterococcus 1983,
vancomycin-resistant enterococcus 1987,
Linezolid-Resistant Enterococcus 1990s,
Clindamycin-resistant C. difficile in New York, Arizona, Florida and Massachusetts between 1989 and 1992
Acinetobacter baumannii in patients at military medical facilities in Iraq/Kuwait region, 2005.

Would you say all these are also results of increasing medical tourism and prevalence of caste system in India?

Regarding the use of antibiotics in poultry and fisheries industries, there is definite need to stricter regulation on its use in the country and all over the world. Just because Europe bans 4 antibiotics (not all) in its feed in 2006, you cant go telling the world to stop using antibiotics.

Also, your blaming Asia for SARS/ Bird flu is insane. When you should be sympathizing with people and trying to help them out, in every way you can, saying that Asia is responsible for manufacturing H1N1 and spreading it in the world, is insulting your understanding of the genetics.

The very fact that medical tourism is on a high in India answers your doubts of sanitation in hospitals. BTW, hospitals in India do not differentiate amongst patients on the basis of caste or "medical insurance".

Regulation in many areas is something India and China are struggling with at the moment. But you must realise, the expanse of the countries and how difficult it can be send a message across an area of 3,287,263 km2 (107 times bigger than Belgium) and atleast 30 major languages.

Regarding alternative therapies,

again you are basing your judgement on something you read/saw but dint understand.
Also, antibiotics is not the only way of treating bacteria.

Simple wiki search would tell you about

Phage therapy (practised in India and Soviet Union, before we climbed the antibiotics bandwagon)
Bioactive phytochemicals (something that was and is practised in India)
Use of plasma technology in wound healing.
to name a few

I am quite sure that within our life times, the vacuum jars and cleansing bodies will make sense in today's scientific tongue. Even if you mock at it now, as a scientist, you must have an open mind to accept what will be published in tomorrow's Lancet, and again, have your doubts and question it as well. Just dont accept it as it is, because Lancet says so....

gt_ameya on Fri Apr 22 06:18:17 2011 said:

Those alternative therapies like trowing up .... it will never work...
It has been studied before...
There is no use in trowing up...
Trowing up is a reflex of the body... only when that reflex is needed it has any benefits.
Same with the jars: yes, it might help against muscle probems, but for the rest...


Plasma technology, and how does that beats down bacteria in the body? You mean use it to prevent contamination?

Phages: a lot of disadvantages that make me think it will never be that good.
If it will work: ok, but same thing happens: bacteria adapt...

Phytochemicals: ok, but whats the difference with antibiotics? Its a substance too... isnt it? Or if its not the substance itself that does the work, then the "thing" it causes , a bacteria can also adapt to that... LIke for example free radicals: bacteria can adapt too.

In the end it comes donw to one thing: use different types of treatment and prevent adaptation.

But you are right: we should also look at other therapies, but in the end they wont be the miracle "drug" either. Bacteria adapt to almost anything.