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Ligation, plasmid rescue problem! - PLasmid transformation after ligation problem (Jan/02/2008 )

Dear All;
I have been having a problem since 2 months. I am ligating a 2.7 kb inser and a 3.4 kb insert into a 8 kb vector. Enzymes ends: KpnI, EcoRV and XhoI. I used negative control for ligation (where I only ligate my cut vector) and it showed no colonies. All plates of ligation reaction (after transformation) show colonies and seem great. However, when I do the miniprep, and run the gel to confirm the plasmid, I get different plasmid sizes all over. Sometimes Ig et just s a ~3KB fragment sometimes I get lower but never 14Kb. Thus the bacteria is growing in Amp and it looks like ligation is working (although I have no positive controL) but I dont get my desired plasmid.

I think it could be recombination problem. That is the ligation is working but plasmid is recombining in bacterial genome and then some parts just leave the genomic DNA. So, I tried growing it at lower temperature (32 or 30 instead of 37) and I tried lower shaking speed... I used DH5a and sbtl2 strains yet same results.

Anyone has any suggestion?
Please reply.
Thank you

-habbas-

could you confirm what the insert digestion for this 3 way ligation?
Is it

Kpn1---Insert1---Xho1
Xho1---Insert2---EcoRV
Kpn1---Vector---EcoRV

Next how many colonies are you screening? And by the way what kind of check digest did you conduct?
I would suggest that you conduct colony PCR (using a PCR reaction that amplifies across the junction between inserts) to sceen. As you are now well aware screening by miniprep is a very time consuming process. Wth colony PCR and a multichannel pipette you can screen 72 colonies easily.

Just to confirm matters, are the DNA fragments clean? After digestion, were the DNA fragments gel purified?

-perneseblue-

As you have suggested, one possibility is the recombination problem. I would try SURE cells to overcome. Also can you describe your ligation mixture.

-scolix-

QUOTE (scolix @ Jan 2 2008, 02:49 PM)
As you have suggested, one possibility is the recombination problem. I would try SURE cells to overcome. Also can you describe your ligation mixture.


Thanks for dropping a reply. Well I don't know about SURE cells, are these teh expensive fancy ones? It is not sold by invitrogen, is it?

Well i did different ligation mixtures but always the vector was low compared to inser... like at least 3 times.. and for once it was in equimolar...Does this answer yoru question?

-habbas-

QUOTE (perneseblue @ Jan 2 2008, 12:07 PM)
could you confirm what the insert digestion for this 3 way ligation?
Is it

Kpn1---Insert1---Xho1
Xho1---Insert2---EcoRV
Kpn1---Vector---EcoRV

Next how many colonies are you screening? And by the way what kind of check digest did you conduct?
I would suggest that you conduct colony PCR (using a PCR reaction that amplifies across the junction between inserts) to sceen. As you are now well aware screening by miniprep is a very time consuming process. Wth colony PCR and a multichannel pipette you can screen 72 colonies easily.

Just to confirm matters, are the DNA fragments clean? After digestion, were the DNA fragments gel purified?


I am sorry, I didn't see your reply earlier.
It is Kpn1-insert-EcoRV-insert-Xho1- Vector

I have screened ~ 200 colonies for now and you can never imagine how boring is that. I have done different ligations as well. The DNA is not so clean. I don't know why but whenever I gel extract anything using Qiagen, the 260/230 is too low (ethanol and salts). I tried washing mroe than once with PE yet the same. 260/280 is normal. The amount I am getting back from Qiagen columns is much less than what I used to (when I worked in another lab). I order a new kit yet the same is happening.

I am still having a problem if anyone has any suggestioN!
I am uploading an image of a gel I ran of the plasmid i miniprep.

-habbas-

QUOTE (habbas @ Jan 2 2008, 05:03 PM)
Thanks for dropping a reply. Well I don't know about SURE cells, are these teh expensive fancy ones? It is not sold by invitrogen, is it?

Well i did different ligation mixtures but always the vector was low compared to inser... like at least 3 times.. and for once it was in equimolar...Does this answer yoru question?


Sure cells are available from stratagene.

For some difficult ligations, i would use 5 -10 x more insert (1:5 or 1:10 ratio of vector: insert) in the ligation.

In your ligation add ~100 ng of vector and insert in 1:5 ratio. This may help.

For gel extraction, try invitrogen. I used to like Qiagen but now have the same problem as you are facing, so switched to invitrogen.

good Luck !!!

-scolix-

QUOTE (scolix @ Jan 8 2008, 02:34 PM)
QUOTE (habbas @ Jan 2 2008, 05:03 PM)
Thanks for dropping a reply. Well I don't know about SURE cells, are these teh expensive fancy ones? It is not sold by invitrogen, is it?

Well i did different ligation mixtures but always the vector was low compared to inser... like at least 3 times.. and for once it was in equimolar...Does this answer yoru question?


Sure cells are available from stratagene.

For some difficult ligations, i would use 5 -10 x more insert (1:5 or 1:10 ratio of vector: insert) in the ligation.

In your ligation add ~100 ng of vector and insert in 1:5 ratio. This may help.

For gel extraction, try invitrogen. I used to like Qiagen but now have the same problem as you are facing, so switched to invitrogen.

good Luck !!!


Malik;
Do you think it is recombination problem? I tried DH10B Max efficiency and Sbtl2 cells still getting same result.

-habbas-

QUOTE (habbas @ Jan 8 2008, 04:38 PM)
Malik;
Do you think it is recombination problem? I tried DH10B Max efficiency and Sbtl2 cells still getting same result.


I think recombination could be a factor. Even if you try cells which prevent recombination, they do not completely prevent recombination. From what you have described, like having many colonies but of varying sizes, sounds like recombination. I have actually had problems with recombination and from what you described, it seems like that. I have used XL-gold and SURE cells from strategene for this problem. Other cells types might work too. Try increasing the total DNA in ligation and also have ratio of 1: 5 or 1:10 and give it a go. I solved by using very high conc of DNA in ligation like vector 150ng and insert ratio 1:5 and it worked for me. But think of other likely problems as well. Like over digestion of the ends.

Good Luck !!!

-scolix-