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Does 16s rRNA gene prove all Abrahamic religions wrong? - (Mar/15/2012 )

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Well if God made Adam and Eve from clay I would try to found out where he get the nucleotides first, not talking about any rRNA...

In my oppinion it's not possible to take the Bible literaly. From that comes the simple implication, that people who take Bible literaly are wrong. Be it for any reason, that it was writen by God (he has strange sense of humor then, since there are contradictions and mistakes) was written by someone by direct inspiration from God (well he should have taken someone more copetent then).. anyway it means that Bible is not a perfect ideal absolutelly correct holly-spirited amazing wonder, but just a book.
I take it that christians finds the book quite interesting, inspiring and wise, the parables or so, why not, that is only the way to percieve it, I found wery amazing insipiring and wise the american remake of The Ring (I mean it, I made me thing really deeply about human nature and I came with a theory obout fluctuation of evil.. but about that maybe some other day..), thing it these thing we see between the lines are in part individuall, so for someone it's Bible, for someone Qur'an for someone esoteric literature and for someone it's the book About the mole who wanted to know who pooped on his head.
So if someone tries to persuade me that only Bible is right or is the only source of morality and wisdom, I just woudn't agree. The christianity and religion in general doesn't have a monopoly for moral. Besides, I personaly tried to read the real Bible (I read the childrens version when I was young, with lot's of images and I thougt that Bible was sort of book with ancient stories) and I was repulsed, really, what they call a Gods superiority I just see arogance. In the Second part I just see the arogance multiplied, I've seen those missionaries telling people on the streets to read Bible. I did, and God... Jesus is a huge jerk! So what does it tell? Wrong translations from hebrew (or what language) they say.. well, lot's of people swear on their translations od Bible as it was a law.
So what does all this say? Nothing, that just I have to find interesting and moving things for me somewhere else than in the Bible, that's all. Bible is just not as unique. It's been massively advertized through centuries.

So basically I have no problem with any religious (or atheist for that matter) person who is not close minded or dogmatic or fanatic of any kind. Apart from that it is a personal thing. Most people who I know and have no problem with don't have those absurd christian (or other religion) oppinions about public matters, and don't take the holly textbooks literally, just as an inspiration (hopefull not of being a jerk). One friend told me about the christian unitarians groups he comes to meet (funny on the fact is, that he's actually jewish), and that he likes it there, because their motto is always doubt, always ask questions. I think that's not a bad move, if they take it seriously. People of this kind can be actually scientists without any problem, because they don't close they eyes from facts. I had one colleague and he once said, partly in joke, that there must be a God, because enzymes are such a wonder. Also the best-known astronomist of my country (you can say such local Carl Sagan) and member of a important skeptic group actually in private believes in God, and was repeatadly explaining that these doesn't exclude. None of those have any problem with evolution or the Big Bang, naturally.

Another question is a personal believe, where I came to conclusion that for me is any religion a merely unnecessary extension above things that are really important. It's like you need a driver to a very required part of hardware, and you can choose either to compile your own (linux style), or choose from existing driver by various companies, some open-source, some freeware, some paid.. and that religion or specifically christianity is like a 250MB HP driver, that installs many things you don't actually need in addition. So I go for the own-compiled driver, it may take longer, but it would fit perfectly, work perfectly and don't bloat on resources. Finally. It would require a life-long version updates anyway.
I share oppinion with several atheist thinkers, that life itself is such a wonder, that is no need to create additional wonder-things above that. Atheism doesn't steal wonder from things, it learns you to look for them in the very ordinary places, through knowledge. There are several laws in the universe (like the law of thermodynamics for example), that simply makes the world the way it is. You don't need testaments to obey them, you can't dissobey them. I mean can you dissobey gravity? (I mean make it non-existent, not for example compansate its effect) You can't. So if there is a question in believing that there is something bigger that us, I don't need to create gods, there is something bigger than us and we're supposed to be humble, not because of gods wrath, but because every action causes reaction and you will eventually pay for it. Now, not in afterlife. And the other thing is, gravity and other "laws" don't needs prayers, churches or groups of people who will tell other people that gravity is great. Gravity doesn't care, you just fall when stumble on Earth, that's gravity and it just works. The obvious limitation is our incomplete understanding if these phenomenons, but they work non the less. But for that reason we should be open minded as Einstein was even ybout these so called laws.

I've seen some document about various "famous" people in a past, who all over the globe shered this one thing, the feeling that there is something bigger than us and that we shall be accountable for our actions, moral etc. Curiously there were atheists, christians, buddhists, muslims, esoterically-centered etc. all kinds of people. This made me finally realise, that what is important is not a religion/or absence of religion, these are but different ways to achieve this. The document also showed many examples of people who shared same "version" of religion, but lack this.. thing..(there was a word for that but I don't know how to translate it to english).. these were the fundamentalist, extremist, blind wrong people, people hurting other people because of different beliefs, people who took the same information from each religion and took it wrong.

So, maybe we should not focus on religion at all, but on other things, is the person open-minded? Can he take facts? Can he admit he was wrong? Can he act responsibly and not arrogantly and selfish?
It's not important that he goes to the church each Sunday if he does, and it's not important that he is atheist if he's a selfish jerk who took literally "the stronger always wins" twistedly from Darwin for a change.

-Trof-

I think the truth is just out there, but some people are not able to see it yet. Just like how everybody saw the apple fall, but only Newton asked why.

-Curtis-

Trof on Fri Aug 31 11:44:34 2012 said:


Well if God made Adam and Eve from clay I would try to found out where he get the nucleotides first, not talking about any rRNA...

Trof, put yourself into the shoes (or sandals?) of the ancient people for a second. How would you try to describe how people came to be? You only have four elements to work with: earth, air, water and fire. Well, it's pretty clear we're not air or fire, so maybe we come from modified earth. And we're clearly not made of stone, because we're soft, so perhaps we were made from earth mixed with water (because we excrete wet sloppy stuff, and we need to drink), so "logically" we were made from clay. That seems to make sense, given how little they knew about anything...

In my oppinion it's not possible to take the Bible literaly. From that comes the simple implication, that people who take Bible literaly are wrong. Be it for any reason, that it was writen by God (he has strange sense of humor then, since there are contradictions and mistakes) was written by someone by direct inspiration from God (well he should have taken someone more copetent then).. anyway it means that Bible is not a perfect ideal absolutelly correct holly-spirited amazing wonder, but just a book.
I guess it also matters what part of the Bible you are talking about. The Bible was written down over a couple of thousand years, so there is a huge historical factor to consider. The first part was, in all probability, based on oral tradition (which is more accurate than we moderns think, as it was the only way ANY knowledge was passed on), plus there is history, poetry, prophecy, law, theology. Some parts are clearly not meant to be taken literally, others definitely are literal. Some parts are similar to other ancient writings, but lots of it are totally different. It has very human figures who are clearly reognisable even today (I think everyone knows of brothers who fight to get the best share- Jacob and Esau, or men who tell half-truths to avoid conflict-Abraham, or women who have falsely accused a man who has spurned them -Potiphar's wife and Joseph, otherwise good men who get themselves into all kinds of marital trouble because they weren't where they were meant to be - King David and Bathsheba). And that's jsut the old testament, the Jewish bible.

So if someone tries to persuade me that only Bible is right or is the only source of morality and wisdom, I just woudn't agree. The christianity and religion in general doesn't have a monopoly for moral.

Clearly, the Bible doesn't have the monopoly, and I don't think any serious Christian would say that no other book has any meaningful moral material.

Jesus is a huge jerk!
Wow. big call! I would recommend a bit of caution, here. Not only is that incredibly offensive to Christians and Muslims, Jesus is widely acknowledged as one of the world's greatest moral teachers...

Wrong translations from hebrew (or what language) they say..
Actually, that argument has been well and truly discredited, as we have found more and more ancient papyri and codices (the forerunnbooks).

Bible is just not as unique. It's been massively advertized through centuries.
Actually, the Bible is unique. It is the foundation of three of the world's great religions, and the three major monotheist religions. It has been more deeply examined, criticised, pulled apart, translated and spread than any other document, and its teachings are the highest moral code in terms of how we should live together in a society. And if it has been massively advertised, it's because of Christianity's ability to spread through the world to all people (no matter what you may think of the message...)

So I won't go completely overboard with the other things you have written about, and turn this into a full-scale apologetic (sorry, I do have a tendancy to over-respond...), can I just say that while I see your point, I have a pile of reasons for not agreeing with it. Maybe it will have to wait until I write a book... :-)

-swanny-

@swanny: I think we got to agreement, because I totally agree with your second to last sentence.

-Trof-

swanny on Mon Sep 3 21:37:05 2012 said:


Trof, put yourself into the shoes (or sandals?) of the ancient people for a second. How would you try to describe how people came to be? You only have four elements to work with: earth, air, water and fire. Well, it's pretty clear we're not air or fire, so maybe we come from modified earth. And we're clearly not made of stone, because we're soft, so perhaps we were made from earth mixed with water (because we excrete wet sloppy stuff, and we need to drink), so "logically" we were made from clay. That seems to make sense, given how little they knew about anything...


True: you have to see it in the "light of time", but then why are we still seeing people out there claiming that it is 100% correct ? Why are there still people out there that do not understand that most of the bible is illustrative , figure of speech, view of that area and not literally what happened.

Also: I do not completely agree with what you state , even this (what you now state) is a figure of speech and the one who wrote this, might not (I am pretty sure of this) be literally meaning we are made from clay.
Lots of the stories in the bible are "stories" , lots of them are written during bad times and were ment as a pass time! Also: people dont seem to realise that many of these stories were passed on orally and later written down .. We all know what happens if you pass a story orally...

How come religious people are blind for these arguments?

Its a proven scientific fact that the bible is a gathering of stories from different times and still there are people out there claiming it was written by 1 person during 1 "lifetime".

Also: the idea that a book or orally passed on story would be kept unchanged during all those years is idiotic. There are indeed some writing evidences, old "bibles" , but they are not as old as where the origin of the bible is situated.
The oldest one is just found in bits and pieces.



Actually, the Bible is unique. It is the foundation of three of the world's great religions, and the three major monotheist religions. It has been more deeply examined, criticised, pulled apart, translated and spread than any other document, and its teachings are the highest moral code in terms of how we should live together in a society. And if it has been massively advertised, it's because of Christianity's ability to spread through the world to all people (no matter what you may think of the message...)


Teachings are the highest moral code? An eye for an eye?
If you would live the way it is written down in the bible (litterally), we would be in total war.

And massively advertised, its because of chirstianity's ability to spread through the world to all people? What?
Are you forgetting how the "christians" did spread their so called religion?
(ok, I confess, many of the so called "spreading" of believe was an excuse to conquer and get rich, but still......)

But in general: there is absolutely no problem in spreading any believe (it can be any idiotic believe, just think of the most idiotic thing out there) if you have enough power and are able to "brainwash" people and keep the people "stupid" and afraid.
Thats how religions thrieved for many years: out of fear! Think about the devil and hell!

-pito-

People used to think that the earth was placed on the back of four gigantic elephants standing on the back of a huge turtle.


I think we are still living in the same time.

It is difficult to question something that you are born with, raised with, taught with, lived with all your life. It is scary. It is scary to know everything was based on myth. We can't expect people to change with just one post of ours, Pito. We are faced with billions!

-Curtis-

It is scary (and somewhat cynically/black-humor funny) that you are right: we are faced with billions. Initially I was about to say: let us not exaggerate, but then... I just had the revelation: we are doomed! Or maybe: we are the wrong ones? If we are so few, and they are so many, maybe we are the crazy ones :P

-ascacioc-

ascacioc on Thu Sep 6 22:51:55 2012 said:


It is scary (and somewhat cynically/black-humor funny) that you are right: we are faced with billions. Initially I was about to say: let us not exaggerate, but then... I just had the revelation: we are doomed! Or maybe: we are the wrong ones? If we are so few, and they are so many, maybe we are the crazy ones


lol, well that's the definition of crazy, :D person who is different from the majority.

-Curtis-

ascacioc on Thu Sep 6 22:51:55 2012 said:


It is scary (and somewhat cynically/black-humor funny) that you are right: we are faced with billions. Initially I was about to say: let us not exaggerate, but then... I just had the revelation: we are doomed! Or maybe: we are the wrong ones? If we are so few, and they are so many, maybe we are the crazy ones

I can be pretty relaxed about this matter since I'm officially crazy.

-Trof-

Well, I just got used to being the crazy one who works a lot and is career driven, I cannot face being crazy because I believe in evolution over God. I want a treatment for this crazy :) Is there one available? Preferably without any side effects that would prevent my lab work ;;)

-ascacioc-
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