Supervising new people - What would you do if..... (Oct/13/2008 )
....you had 5 new master students starting in your lab?
Usually they pop into my office to ask me everytime they need something and it worked fine, but with 5 people its something else than with one or two. The problem is that there is nobody else around who really can help them with their questions besides me, and so from the time the first of them arrives in the morning (app. 9h) till the last leaves the lab (app. 17h) I can not work, as at least every 30 minutes somebody comes in. I have to say for two of them I have some responsibiliy, the other three are working on something completely different.
But I have my own project to do and some papers to write and I do not want to work everyday until nine in the evenig and on the weekends to get my work done!
Usually the questions are where are the chemicals, how does this work etc. so usual things you want to know when new to a lab. I decided to do a lab walk with them but the only one who (besides the PhD students who should know already) was showing up was the student who makes the least trouble and knows things when told once.
So what I wanted to know: do you think it is unfair to tell all the others that they had the opportunity to ask, but preferred to go for a coffee so I will not answer the questions anymore???? But I do not want a battlefield in the lab, so:
Maybe somebody of you had similar experience with new people in the lab and can share some experience with me?
How do you deal with new people in the lab? How often should you be patient and explain them what they should do: only once, twice....? The problem is we are having a big switch of people at the moment so besides me and two PhD students who only have to write their thesis nobody is permanently in the lab.....
So any suggestions would be welcome!
I am more or less responsible to help the new students arriving in our Lab What I do the first day is to organise a "Tour" wgere I show them where things are located and the different units and I give them a recommandation booklet where all necessary informations are summarized It works quite fine 
Thanks! Are you supplied the booklet or did you have to write it on your own? I was thinking about something like this, but I do not want to write it myself.....
And what do you do if people do not attend the tour or come asking the same questions again and again?
I am quite patient as I know that you cannot keep everything in mind the first time, but when I am asked for the sixth time how to switch on the dishwasher (just an example, you can include every very basic lab equipment here)
I sometimes lose my patience......but how to deal with this?I am facing some kind of "philosophical" problem: I always wanted to be a good supervisor like I whished I had, explaining everything and NOT loosing temper when something gets forgotten, but I do not have the time to explain everything from scratch again and again. So I must urge people to remember things and take care when I talk to them. I can not spend one hour with everybody a day!
I am trying to establish a "open questions coffee" but nobody has questions and when later I started sorting my data somebody drops in to ask
and I will ignore these requests in the future and tell them to come to the coffee to ask I will see if it works! But any suggestions are still welcome!
I wrote it myself including what I thought was the most important information
I fix an appointment with them and do the tour all at once. I sometimes lose my patience......but how to deal with this?As for the patience try to remember when you were young and freshman in your first lab
I am trying to establish a "open questions coffee" but nobody has questions and when later I started sorting my data somebody drops in to ask
and I will ignore these requests in the future and tell them to come to the coffee to ask I will see if it works! But any suggestions are still welcome!
I guess you choose a right track saying I'm available on that time and please don't disturb in the rest of the day. Just try to involve the other people in your lab to give you a hand
Remember that nothing is really dramatic in life except the Death
When I've supervised 1 person, I would show him once, let him do it and I watch once, and then he's on his own and there aren't usually any questions.
I also think it is good to make them wait until the coffee break with questions - even if they need to wait until the next day. I think that sometimes they will actually think about the problem and try and solve it by themselves, rather than look at you as an easier way to find out.
Maybe I will take the time, but I am quite pessimistic as they would have to READ it
Remember that nothing is really dramatic in life except the Death
I NEVER EVER made ANY mistakes
(I usually clean up the mess before anybody sees 
)Thank you this is what I feeled bad about! The students seem to be quite puzzeled and helpless at the moment, but hopefully they get used to it (and maybe learn to help themselves).
And for involving other people: I do not want to produce armageddon (belive me, people keep having very clever ideas so I do not want to encourage their creativity in this respect, I am glad they are not working at CERN but in microbiology); the PIs have not been in the lab since ages and the rest of the staff
I think your are really patient with your students, but they tend to rely on your help too much if you there and available and happy to help everytime they come and ask. If you have explained several times, you can do it once more and demand, they write it down in front of you what you are telling and not come again (only if something is dramatically wrong...). First they should ask their colleagues who may have an aswer to it before they come to you.
The idea of a time-frame for FAQs seems great to me, you appoint a special time on each day for this and they should stay away the other time (if nothing extraodinary important).
A book with the essentials in it seems good but they should write it down by themselves, the new ones for the older, this way, the knowledge about methods and machines also stays in the lab. Hm, perhaps, if everyone who comes and asks and gets the answer from you has to write a small notice in a document, in which the other can write down important things also... How about this?
Heads up, you ARE a good supervisor, I am sure! I was more impatient, as you may read between the lines 
I also think it is good to make them wait until the coffee break with questions - even if they need to wait until the next day. I think that sometimes they will actually think about the problem and try and solve it by themselves, rather than look at you as an easier way to find out.
This was what I was thinking: show them once, maybe one or two questions the second time and then it should work fine. But some seem not to be able to remember things they did three days ago, but a lab is no kindergarden!
And for the coffee break, I am glad for some back up as I am feeling guilty to let them wait....stupid I know.
To me this is absolutely unacceptable behaviour on the part of the masters students, and they should be made aware of it.
Did you make it clear that you were doing the walk through specifically for them? There is nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that you set aside some of your time specifically to help them and they effectively wasted it. There is no need to be angry with them, just be frank. Hopefully, they will apologise.
In my current lab, attendance at all lab meetings is mandatory unless cleared by the boss beforehand. The whole point of having a meeting is to share information amongst all the members of a group. Given that these students just started, I'd make sure that you get them on the right track now: they have to be there when you ask them to be there unless they have a valid excuse (e.g. they are teaching, or are on the confocal, etc.)
My former boss had her office in the lab and also had trouble with students constantly pestering her. She managed to deal with this pretty effectively: if her lab door was closed, she was not to be disturbed unless there was a dire emergency. If it was open, we could ask questions, but only 'important ones' (e.g. 'can I have your signature on this purchasing order, it needs to be submitted in an hour' or 'can we arrange a meeting to discuss my data'). Otherwise, we were expected to get help from the post-docs or more senior students, or figure things out ourselves.
One thing that helped make the lab run smoothly was that she made sure the lab was meticulously organised: all drawers and cupboards had clear labels and everything was stored in a logical way, all the standard experimental protocols were easily accessible, and all the pieces of equipment had the instructions on them. So questions like 'where can I find this' or 'how do I do this' were minimised. About one day a year she'd have a 'lab organisation day' where no one would do any experiments: everyone from post-docs down to volunteer students would cull through all the storage to make sure everything was in the right place, old solutions would be thrown out, some people would be put in charge of typing up instructions to put on machines, some people would sort through paperwork and manuals, etc.etc. etc. I know it sounds like a big waste of time, but the one day of lost work was more than made up for my how efficiently the lab ran.
This system might not work for you, but I think it does a lot to promote independence in the lab, and it really does make it a nicer place to work, both for the senior lab members and the newcomers.
Ginger
PS-I've been supervising one student lately, and she has a very bad habit of asking me every question she has without bothering to try and find the answer for herself. She doesn't read manuals, and I don't think she's ever felt inspired enough to look in a book or search online to find something out. (It's a worrying habit, I know.) I've had to make it clear that although I might know the answer to a lot of the questions she asks, I will sometimes not answer the question because she should find it out for herself. She can come back and check the answer with me if she likes, but I have had to establish that I am fundamentally not a question-and-answer service, and that the reason I know so much isn't because I was forever pestering other people in my former lab, but because I was inquisitive, I read a lot, and tried to commit important facts to memory as opposed to reading them once and then forgetting them. You might do well to also establish such a precedent in you lab regarding questions: i.e. sometimes, donàt answer them on principle because it's something they ought to be able to figure out for themselves.
To me this is absolutely unacceptable behaviour on the part of the masters students, and they should be made aware of it.
Did you make it clear that you were doing the walk through specifically for them? There is nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that you set aside some of your time specifically to help them and they effectively wasted it. There is no need to be angry with them, just be frank. Hopefully, they will apologise.
In my current lab, attendance at all lab meetings is mandatory unless cleared by the boss beforehand. The whole point of having a meeting is to share information amongst all the members of a group. Given that these students just started, I'd make sure that you get them on the right track now: they have to be there when you ask them to be there unless they have a valid excuse (e.g. they are teaching, or are on the confocal, etc.)
My former boss had her office in the lab and also had trouble with students constantly pestering her. She managed to deal with this pretty effectively: if her lab door was closed, she was not to be disturbed unless there was a dire emergency. If it was open, we could ask questions, but only 'important ones' (e.g. 'can I have your signature on this purchasing order, it needs to be submitted in an hour' or 'can we arrange a meeting to discuss my data'). Otherwise, we were expected to get help from the post-docs or more senior students, or figure things out ourselves.
One thing that helped make the lab run smoothly was that she made sure the lab was meticulously organised: all drawers and cupboards had clear labels and everything was stored in a logical way, all the standard experimental protocols were easily accessible, and all the pieces of equipment had the instructions on them. So questions like 'where can I find this' or 'how do I do this' were minimised. About one day a year she'd have a 'lab organisation day' where no one would do any experiments: everyone from post-docs down to volunteer students would cull through all the storage to make sure everything was in the right place, old solutions would be thrown out, some people would be put in charge of typing up instructions to put on machines, some people would sort through paperwork and manuals, etc.etc. etc. I know it sounds like a big waste of time, but the one day of lost work was more than made up for my how efficiently the lab ran.
This system might not work for you, but I think it does a lot to promote independence in the lab, and it really does make it a nicer place to work, both for the senior lab members and the newcomers.
Ginger
I want to attend your lab!!!!! I love clear and structured organisation, but when I tried to get a logical system for our glassware and tips etc. I was told that I could do it on my own because nobody was interested in organising things (so if you want to filter something you need to go to three different labs to get the filter, the tube and the syringe
but everybody seems happy with this; we have all the storage - possibilities in the lab filled with "private property" for this reason. But as I mentioned we have a big change in people at the moment, only two people of the last three years will stay (me included) and we have the 5 starting at the moment and 2 or 3 should follow in spring (so new people, new projects, maybe some new organisation)...but a question hierarchy has to establish again too. So it is quite busy at the moment, but I hope it will settle
The students that did not attend were told that they can ask me at coffee break or should talk to their supervisors (who are at the lab only for 8h a week and asked me to have an eye on their students). So I think I will have more time for my work from now.....I do not like to be fooled!
But for me it is quite new to have direct responsibility for people in the lab; I was co-supervising a lot of people previously, but I never had the final responsibility.
biomaus: thank you
