Bullying in Science - Starting a discussion (Aug/13/2008 )

jorge1907, as somebody who has a 'real job', being in the army and thus making our boffin problems seem mild in comparison, how would you overcome a similar situation faced by Peanutnation?

Your experiments are not working. After conducting a few experiments of your own, you now believe that your experiments are being sabotaged. Your primary suspect is a rather hostile labmate. You have no support from other lab members. As the new guy, people believe that you are naturally incompetent and are too busy with their own work to indulge your fantasies. Your boss naturally shares the same inclination. He continues to demand that you produce results.

How would you solve this problem? What are the steps to taken? How do you get the evidence.
It would be very useful information for members of the community. I believe it would be more profitable to discuss what one should do when faced with such a situation. Or what you did to get out of it.



And jorge1907, please don't make fun of suicide again.... it isn't funny. There is little I can do to you here, to stress my displeasure in a 'manly' fashion. But i can tell you suicides does happen. And when it does, you realize how easy it is to get into similar position and how blinded people can get and how things can go out of control. With your background, jorge1907, you can see things in perspective. The problems of a PhD student must seem small compared to holding your life in your hands. But for many new PhD students who moved from undergrad to a postgrad, their project is the most important thing that they have every done. Everybody from their boss to the peers makes it seem so. A few lose perspective. And to be frank, the entire bioforum is one big self help group. And this board in particular are for those who feel that the wall are closing in and need either to vent or need help.

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jorge1907's solution would be according to his military education: First shot, then ask or think about. And some innocent casualties, what the heck, just collateral damage.
But why becoming annoyed about him? A traditional 19th century mindset helps at least to liven up or to rile up the forum discussion.

(But I don't wish him as boss for anybody here. Another case of "generally unhealthy atmosphere in a lab" imo. )

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I have chosen grad school, while I could have a real job since high school - I was a young journalist, and I was asked to stay in the newspaper. I've chosen to get some education first, and then, it just hooked me on. Sometimes I've regretted the decision, now I'm not. Friends working in the newspapers are telling me it is not nearly as creative as I imagined. While in my grad school, I am starting to get more knowledge and more oportunities to create than in any other job.
Why grad schoold isn't a real job, anyway? You work long hours, you get money and you can be fired - sounds like a full deal to me.
Jorge is a troll and can't be reasoned with. Bullies can't be reasoned with. You see, though, his mindset - while I can't certainly say, not knowing him personally, that he's a bully IRL, it's the same as a bully could say. And in his mind, formed by the Army (notice! I don't know ANY other institution in which bullying is considered a ritual of passage, and he seems to carry the skewed reality into the other parts of life), there is one truth we can notice. Certain people draw attention of bullies easier than others. That can be: talented people; young and insecure students, who don't know what is "normal" in the lab; young ambitious women (please notice the macho talk). Anyone, who stands out.
It's black and white: people who haven't gotten in a "fight" (aren't as occupied with a forum post exchange) "have no balls" for him. People, who want to say: I've been there, I've lived it, you're not alone, are whiners. He seems to not understand the principles of today's science - that it's done in a team, and the team should work as a whole - he just sees the race. Well it's a race, all right, but a Formula 1 race, not a contact sport - you shouldn't hit other people faces, but form a coordinated, succesful group with a leader and race other groups (not sabotage them - you can't focus on your own race...)
Now, it's just a forum post discussion. Anybody can just walk out. In a lab, there's no such a possibility - sometimes there is, but it can ruin someones career.
And yes, I've heard about two cases of grad student suicide in my surroundings, one ocurred when I was doing my Ms (another lab). I don't know the story behind it. But if they resorted to killing themselves, that means nobody helped them in time.
It is damn good the silence has been broken.
Do you think that there should be courses for PIs and grad students about group work, assertivity, bullying and such?

My lunches has been boring recently, cassandra I'll be back to lunch thread on monday, perhaps

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Jorge dude…what a breath of toxic air! Why do you wanna continue with this slugfest? Is this what you learned in the army (and your message all along)….how to be a jerk and loving it….how to attack, needlessly and unprovoked? Aren't most armed forces also sworn to protect and defend the weak, to bring comfort and hope to the afflicted, to fight fear and oppression, to maintain the peace?

But I can see your point too i.e. that we have to stand up for ourselves, that we have to stay focused, that when things get tough or downright horrid, we’ve got to stay put and "fight" like man or be prepared to sacrifice a lot etc. And if we can’t put up with all these, if we need a mommy for a shield or a shoulder to cry on, then it’s best to quit and find another job.….and more importantly, that we should never ever whine. So why couldn’t you tell us all this without being insulting and spiteful? This Dr. House routine can only take you so far. Oh, I retract this analogy also. I happen to like Dr. House (his abrasiveness and all)…he’s the kind that you’d like to save, especially from himself.

And somehow, the purpose of this subforum escapes you- it’s for venting and counselling. Yes, providing solutions is a far reach but if it helps us members when we rant and rave, vent our frustrations or just share experiences with each other, why would you deny us that? And if the other members with a lot more experience and knowledge will give their counsel, why shouldn't they?

I’m sorry but by just telling us to grow up, wtf does it mean? To be like you with no empathy and compassion, contemptuous of what you perceive as weakness in others, sexist, arrogant and armadillo-skinned…hmm…I’m sure I can think of more ad hominems but I guess you just wouldn’t care,you'd probably even wear them as badges of honor.

I admit that my impudent, irreverent tongue usually gets the better of me and honestly, I don’t want to provoke you more (altho how you dismissed suicide really ticked me off) but I have the inexperience and stupidity excuse of youth (well, at least relatively) but what about you, what’s your excuse? I really think that you could become an esteemed and valuable member of this forum. You’re probably in the position to share, to teach, to inspire but if I’m one of your students and all I’m inspired to do is never to become a PI like you, then I think it's a very sad thing all around. Oh, and lastly, in that situation described above by pernese, what do you think is the grown-up thing to do besides "not whining"?

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Dear Peanutnation,

I got through this by being a good scientist, getting good publications etc. that in their own way snubbed those that seemed to find me a threat. I never lowered myself to their level (dreamt about revenge though ) and was incredibly thankful that I had good friends in the labs who allowed me to vent. I vent very loudly at times (and not so politely at times ). Eventually I would leave the lab or the other person would leave the lab and things would settle.

I hope your problem goes away after the firing. I am so happy for you that your PI supported you, eventually.

Thank for listening

AussieUSA

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Dear Telomerase,

In the US and Australia postdocs are being taught about people management (finally). I can't promise that pig-headed people will "learn" that different types of people need different forms of management but it is a BIG start. I also see more lab managers playing a role in people management so often you can have a quiet word with them to see what the lab can do to stop bullying, before it becomes a "manager" level issue.

But I like your idea of "group work" ... many private companies do this to allow the team to work better together. Science really needs to pick this up.

If you are a grad student or postdoc, talk to your training officers (or PIs) to suggest this type of training.

Regards,

AussieUSA

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I also think it is a good idea. But suggesting to your PI that he take such a course probably isn't going to work. If he needs to take the course, perhaps he could handle such constructive criticism after the class, but likely not before it! I think that it needs to be more of a global approach within the institution, where all the PIs must attend. And no skipping by the big/well known lab heads!

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Well, nobody goes into science because they have extraordinary people skills...

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Can't believe you said this (almost choked on my coffee..) it's even better than jorge's one-liners...
perhaps another poll Telomerase: Are scientists people-persons?

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I wasn't actually suggesting you tell your PI to do this course ... that's a sure way to get on the wrong side. More that your PI could suggest to the big-wigs etc about possible training courses to offer the labs. A PI has more say than a grad student or even postdoc :-)

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