94 replies to this topic

[pito]

hobglobin, on Jul 15 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?

@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given ).

To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time...

I remember a publication from a few months ago on the female-male ratio in high posistions (for governement places only though) and there were only a handfew women on top positions.
But offcourse, you need to take in act that it was also about military positions and there are almost no women at high places (its becoming better now , but thats because females are now getting to the high places because they finally have enough service years)

It was in dutch so I do not think it would be handy if I looked for it and posted it here lol

[DNA]

3 males, 6 Females in my lab in Australia

[casandra]

hobglobin, on Jul 15 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?

@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given ).

To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time...

..I also have an anecdote...I was and still am a very shy student, I hated (still do) public speaking, I'd rather die (or is it kill) than ask anyone........of course there are stats, we only need the time to look for them but which ones are we looking for any ways? Has anybody read this (I've no access but it could be interesting):

Gender bias remains prevalent in the biological sciences
Hannah Brown
Molecular Oncology
Volume 2, Issue 4, December 2008, Pages 293-295

Edited by casandra, 16 July 2009 - 09:56 AM.

[toejam]

i just thought of posting this reference from science here

Report Finds No Gender Bias in Faculty Hiring, Resources

[hobglobin]

toejam, on Jul 16 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

i just thought of posting this reference from science here

Report Finds No Gender Bias in Faculty Hiring, Resources

Another paper this time from nature (2006) about this topic:
 Does_gender_matter.pdf (682.61K)
Number of downloads: 5

[fishdoc]

I've been in my current lab for about 7 years. In that time, the breakdown of the people that have worked in my lab and in one that works closely with ours is

Male - 8 (including both PIs)
Female - 12


I haven't kept track, but looking at the department as a whole, the employees and grad students have been predominantly women. The faculty have been predominantly men.

[Ana C]

I'm also in Belgium... Le's see, our lab is like this:

1 big boss - male
2 professors - male and female
1 assistant - male
6 PhD students - 2 males, 4 females
4 technicians - 3 males, 1 female
2 secretaries - 2 females


50% of each!



I think it's a good balance



--------------------------------------------


Help me go to Antarctica - vote here: http://www.blogyourw.../blogs/view/204

pito, on Mar 31 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

Hey all,

how many female/ male co-workers or co-students do you have in your class, company?


In belgium almost all the biochemical, biotechnology and medical biology courses are filled with females.
(50% ratio and sometimes even 65-75% women)
(ex. biotechnology (biochemical) engineering, biotechnology ,and medical biotechnology especially. And specifically for the courses that are research orientated or to become a teacher, the industrial paths seem to attrackt more males.)
In my case: 12 students during the last year of education and 4 male, 8 female.

I wonder if it is in your country too?

Strangely at later stage (work, research and even to get a phd the women seem to be vanished: not a lot of women in research nor education.
(compared with the ratio during university at bachelor master stage)

[TheAce]

Hi All,

Just to add to this discussion, in my (small) department in the U.K. the breakdown is something like this.

10F 4M, with the Dept head being male (although we never see him), 4 female PIs, 4 female Phds, 2 male PhDs (me being one of them), 2M and 2F postdocs. Seems a bit top heavy both in respect to F:M ratio and Boss:Student.

Thankfully I'm moving to a new lab, where the split is more 50:50 and there are more indians and less chiefs.

[casandra]

TheAce, on Sep 25 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Hi All,

Just to add to this discussion, in my (small) department in the U.K. the breakdown is something like this.

10F 4M, with the Dept head being male (although we never see him), 4 female PIs, 4 female Phds, 2 male PhDs (me being one of them), 2M and 2F postdocs. Seems a bit top heavy both in respect to F:M ratio and Boss:Student.

Thankfully I'm moving to a new lab, where the split is more 50:50 and there are more indians and less chiefs.

Hi The Ace..........so who gets to do the heavy lifting....still the chiefs? . BTW, welcome to the forum....where hopefully, there are no indians and no chiefs....

[lab rat]

casandra, on Jul 13 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

And I really wonder how people and esp guys would react if they are faced with such an assertive, aggressive or demanding woman? Would they be more inclined to help her out (if she needs any help) or would it be a turn-off? Would she have earned respect and admiration or instead provoke the raising of defense barriers?

@ casandra: As an assertive, aggressive woman, I can answer these questions based on my experiences. My experiences may or may not be typical.

No. I get along just fine with men on a personal, equal basis. Men at work are a different matter. I have pointed out problems (and provided my sources for recommended corrections), have spoken my mind, and have defended my position to men in a position of power--and have been berated for being insubordinate, difficult to work with, etc. I was chewed out by one boss because I declined to be his graduate student, even though I had no interest in his field of study. (It was just a paycheck.) He also said, "You make your own way." It was not a compliment.

Quote

Would she be treated any differently since she doesn't fit the stereotypical image we have of how women shld behave?

Yes. I am a 'troublemaker' and 'hot-headed', just because I take exception to being "owned." Working for a man does not entitle him to making my career decisions for me. This is not female chauvanism; I would take exception to a woman doing the same.

[StevieRay]

lab rat, on Nov 24 2009, 08:43 AM, said:

casandra, on Jul 13 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

And I really wonder how people and esp guys would react if they are faced with such an assertive, aggressive or demanding woman? Would they be more inclined to help her out (if she needs any help) or would it be a turn-off? Would she have earned respect and admiration or instead provoke the raising of defense barriers?

@ casandra: As an assertive, aggressive woman, I can answer these questions based on my experiences. My experiences may or may not be typical.

No. I get along just fine with men on a personal, equal basis. Men at work are a different matter. I have pointed out problems (and provided my sources for recommended corrections), have spoken my mind, and have defended my position to men in a position of power--and have been berated for being insubordinate, difficult to work with, etc. I was chewed out by one boss because I declined to be his graduate student, even though I had no interest in his field of study. (It was just a paycheck.) He also said, "You make your own way." It was not a compliment.

Quote

Would she be treated any differently since she doesn't fit the stereotypical image we have of how women shld behave?

Yes. I am a 'troublemaker' and 'hot-headed', just because I take exception to being "owned." Working for a man does not entitle him to making my career decisions for me. This is not female chauvanism; I would take exception to a woman doing the same.

Working for your BOSS (male or female) entitles him/her to make decisions and to expect you to follow them. If you cannot, get out of the lab. Furthermore, if you are his grad student, then he expects you to act like one.

Working for a boss (male or female) DOES entitle him to make decisions about what you do at work. Now get back to work.....

Edited by StevieRay, 24 November 2009 - 09:15 AM.

[lab rat]

StevieRay, on Nov 24 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Working for your BOSS (male or female) entitles him/her to make decisions and to expect you to follow them. If you cannot, get out of the lab. Furthermore, if you are his grad student, then he expects you to act like one.

Working for a boss (male or female) DOES entitle him to make decisions about what you do at work. Now get back to work.....

I believe that you may not have read my post correctly. No boss has the right to force you to be their advisee, or to make decisions regarding your graduate program if you decline them.

I have not disclosed a lot of information in this post for confidentiality reasons. Refrain from making inflammatory remarks, please.

[aimikins]

I think you may have misunderstood her posting.

[Prep!]

well i m not a PhD student.. i work in the biopharmaceitics in the analytics
In my previous company.. my head was a lady... a very very inefficient one!!! as lab members we weer 5 scientists, 4 males and 1 females and rest of the break up was like 10 males and 15 females.. ya a huge department!!!!
The males sometimes do seem to be more assertive and proactive but i found that the females except my Head (tat laeves only that 1 scientist) had a very very cool head and very knowledgeble and patient!!!
Also the efficiency was moer when more guys were working than the ladies.. but may be for obvious reasons like staying back late and all..
In all i thought it was balanced and any gender did not play a role in the productivity!!!

[metaltemujin]

Lets see, around 14 female and 6 male students in my biotech class :|