98 replies to this topic

[casandra]

LostintheLab, on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?

I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong ...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability   )

[LostintheLab]

casandra, on Jul 15 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

LostintheLab, on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?

I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong ...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability   )

Yeah, I would say European women and north American woman are fairly equally assertive (maybe the north americans are slightly more (just being extra sterotypical here   )).  I'm a pretty shy person, but nothing compared to some people in my lab over here (and they are still very good scientists btw), but this I can see has a big cultural factor in it.

[casandra]

LostintheLab, on Jul 14 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

casandra, on Jul 15 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

LostintheLab, on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?

I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong ...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability   )

Yeah, I would say European women and north American woman are fairly equally assertive (maybe the north americans are slightly more (just being extra sterotypical here   )).  I'm a pretty shy person, but nothing compared to some people in my lab over here (and they are still very good scientists btw), but this I can see has a big cultural factor in it.

if by assertive we mean being confident or firm and direct in our dealings with others..yeah, we're probably equal in that respect but if it means being pushy or expressive, we are probably more ( flamboyant too) ...and I guess you're right about the japanese...it's a strongly hierarchical society and conformity is the rule...everyone has a role that they have to stick to and I suppose the women are at the bottom of the ladder...this doesn't diminish their ability in anyway but it's something that most of us westerners can not really understand...

Edited by casandra, 14 July 2009 - 07:07 PM.

[pito]

LostintheLab, on Jul 15 2009, 02:22 AM, said:

Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?

I am from belgium, as casandra allready stated.

I have no idea if it has to do with the cultural background.
Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe I just had bad luck having very shy girls in my classes.

But I am not the only one who complained about this. Other boys in my class had the same problem and even teachers made complaints about some girls being too shy, scared to ask things.
Sometimes they rather made an error or didnt do anything at all instead of asking the teacher for advise.
There was once a practical course in the laboratory and 1 group never even got started because they kept looking at eachother because no one knew what to do and the teacher was just sitting at her desk, overlooking everhting and after 15 minutes she said: ok, we stop right here, if no one knows what to do there is no point in continuing and no one even asks for directions from me...
We had the same course later that day and we also didnt really know what to do, but I simple went up to her and ask here what to do exactly etc.. I started my experiment and I noticed that some of the girls in the group just copied what I did in stead of asking the teacher for help too.

In the end 2 other boys asked the teacher for more information to start.

And this happened not in the first year but in the 3the year! All the people there were at least 20 years old!

[hobglobin]

Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?

@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given   ).

To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time...

Edited by hobglobin, 15 July 2009 - 09:44 AM.

[pito]

hobglobin, on Jul 15 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?

@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given   ).

To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time...

I remember a publication from a few months ago on the female-male ratio in high posistions (for governement places only though) and  there were only a handfew women on top positions.
But offcourse, you need to take in act that it was also about military positions and there are almost no women at high places (its becoming better now , but thats because females are now getting to the high places because they finally have enough service years)

It was in dutch so I do not think it would be handy if I looked for it and posted it here lol

[DNA]

3 males, 6 Females in my lab in Australia

[casandra]

hobglobin, on Jul 15 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?

@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given   ).

To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time...

..I also have an anecdote...I was and still am a very shy student, I hated (still do) public speaking, I'd rather die (or is it kill) than ask anyone........of course there are stats, we only need the time to look for them but which ones are we looking for any ways? Has anybody read this (I've no access but it could be interesting):

Gender bias remains prevalent in the biological sciences
Hannah Brown
Molecular Oncology
Volume 2, Issue 4, December 2008, Pages 293-295

Edited by casandra, 16 July 2009 - 09:56 AM.

[toejam]

i just thought of posting this reference from science here

Report Finds No Gender Bias in Faculty Hiring, Resources

[hobglobin]

toejam, on Jul 16 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

i just thought of posting this reference from science here

Report Finds No Gender Bias in Faculty Hiring, Resources

Another paper this time from nature (2006) about this topic:
 Does_gender_matter.pdf   682.61K   56 downloads

[fishdoc]

I've been in my current lab for about 7 years. In that time, the breakdown of the people that have worked in my lab and in one that works closely with ours is

Male - 8 (including both PIs)
Female - 12


I haven't kept track, but looking at the department as a whole, the employees and grad students have been predominantly women. The faculty have been predominantly men.

[Ana C]

I'm also in Belgium... Le's see, our lab is like this:

1 big boss - male
2 professors - male and female
1 assistant - male
6 PhD students - 2 males, 4 females
4 technicians - 3 males, 1 female
2 secretaries - 2 females


50% of each!



I think it's a good balance



--------------------------------------------


Help me go to Antarctica - vote here: http://www.blogyourw.../blogs/view/204

pito, on Mar 31 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

Hey all,

how many female/ male co-workers or co-students do you have in your class, company?


In belgium almost all the biochemical, biotechnology and medical biology courses are filled with females.
(50% ratio and sometimes even 65-75% women)
(ex. biotechnology (biochemical) engineering, biotechnology ,and medical biotechnology especially. And specifically for the courses that are research orientated or to become a teacher, the industrial paths seem to attrackt more males.)
In my case: 12 students during the last year of education and 4 male, 8 female.

I wonder if it is in your country too?

Strangely at later stage (work, research and even to get a phd the women seem to be vanished: not a lot of women in research nor education.
(compared with the ratio during university at bachelor master stage)

[TheAce]

Hi All,

Just to add to this discussion, in my (small) department in the U.K. the breakdown is something like this.

10F 4M, with the Dept head being male (although we never see him), 4 female PIs, 4 female Phds, 2 male PhDs (me being one of them), 2M and 2F postdocs. Seems a bit top heavy both in respect to F:M ratio and Boss:Student.  

Thankfully I'm moving to a new lab, where the split is more 50:50 and there are more indians and less chiefs.

[casandra]

TheAce, on Sep 25 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

Hi All,

Just to add to this discussion, in my (small) department in the U.K. the breakdown is something like this.

10F 4M, with the Dept head being male (although we never see him), 4 female PIs, 4 female Phds, 2 male PhDs (me being one of them), 2M and 2F postdocs. Seems a bit top heavy both in respect to F:M ratio and Boss:Student.  

Thankfully I'm moving to a new lab, where the split is more 50:50 and there are more indians and less chiefs.

Hi The Ace..........so who gets to do the heavy lifting....still the chiefs? . BTW, welcome to the forum....where hopefully, there are no indians and no chiefs....

[lab rat]

casandra, on Jul 13 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

And I really wonder how people and esp guys would react if they are faced with such an assertive, aggressive or demanding woman? Would they be more inclined to help her out (if she needs any help) or would it be a turn-off? Would she have earned respect and admiration or instead provoke the raising of defense barriers?

@ casandra: As an assertive, aggressive woman, I can answer these questions based on my experiences. My experiences may or may not be typical.

No. I get along just fine with men on a personal, equal basis. Men at work are a different matter. I have pointed out problems (and provided my sources for recommended corrections), have spoken my mind, and have defended my position to men in a position of power--and have been berated for being insubordinate, difficult to work with, etc. I was chewed out by one boss because I declined to be his graduate student, even though I had no interest in his field of study. (It was just a paycheck.) He also said, "You make your own way." It was not a compliment.

Quote

Would she be treated any differently since she doesn't fit the stereotypical image we have of how women shld behave?

Yes. I am a 'troublemaker' and 'hot-headed', just because I take exception to being "owned." Working for a man does not entitle him to making my career decisions for me. This is not female chauvanism; I would take exception to a woman doing the same.