81 replies to this topic

[pito]

casandra, on Apr 13 2009, 04:27 PM, said:

pito, on Apr 12 2009, 05:40 AM, said:

Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)

(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)

Hi pito,

I think that people would usually notice if someone’s different or we can say a little (or a lot) “off”. The signals we can detect and this sense ( how we intuit them), we’ve learned to develop since childhood. And with people affected with AS, you don’t get only one signal but a combination of them: avoidance of eye contact, impaired prosody and pragmatics, repetitive behaviours, ‘obsession’ with one topic of interest etc….these are all very hard to miss. I read that in contrast to autistics, AS- affected people early on show interest in engaging in activities or interacting with others, but because of the difficulties to fit in, or bec they feel different, then some of them become frustrated and then withdraw and end up being socially isolated. But as Astilius has pointed out, with behavioural and occupational therapies (or even drugs), the condition can be managed and social skills can be learned. Of course there could still be a lot of pitfalls but even the NTs are not immune to these social situations blowing up on our faces.

It’s very interesting your final comment esp about hypocrisy i.e. when you don’t like someone (or something?) you don’t hide your feelings. In the Japanese culture, they have this concept of “wa” or harmony…probably what we westerners would consider taken to the extreme. People have “honne” or true feelings and “tatemae” those they show in public. If showing their true feelings would not be for the common good, they’d conceal them to avoid discord and maintain social harmony….of course, this is an over-simplification and it’s a lot more complicated than that. But we can go back to your example, it’s probably easy to show you don’t like someone when it’s somebody you met them on the street or in a bar but what if it’s your boss, a colleague you have to work with 8 hours a day, your child’s teacher, your mother-in-law? It’s probably one of the positive outcomes of having AS, I think they’re probably more “honest” and wouldn’t engage in any form of “acceptable” deception just to maintain social harmony. But we need to ask Astilius about this too.

casandra

I would like to add the following casandra:

The hypocrisy topic is not about really showing you do not like someone by telling them: I do not like you, but more a way of showing: ok I can work with you or whatever but I will never be your best friend... I know this is hard to explain, but I was more refering to the hypocrisy that people show when they are just "too happy" to see you...
I am more talking about the idea of "I love you or like you" thingie that a lot of people have .. they do not act the same way when you are there or not there.
There is a huge difference between that and the part of telling someone in their face you hate them.

I cant really explain it, its hard, but I hope this helps.


Second comment: true, most of the times you would see that something might be wrong, but I really ment: would they care when they see it? I mean: ok you see he is wrong, but would you change your behaviour then? would you ignore the person or rather not have contact with him? Its more the state of mind of people I am wondering about, not the fact if they really notice it.

[casandra]

pito, on Apr 13 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

I would like to add the following casandra:

The hypocrisy topic is not about really showing you do not like someone by telling them: I do not like you, but more a way of showing: ok I can work with you or whatever but I will never be your best friend... I know this is hard to explain, but I was more refering to the hypocrisy that people show when they are just "too happy" to see you...
I am more talking about the idea of "I love you or like you" thingie that a lot of people have .. they do not act the same way when you are there or not there.
There is a huge difference between that and the part of telling someone in their face you hate them.

I cant really explain it, its hard, but I hope this helps.


Second comment: true, most of the times you would see that something might be wrong, but I really ment: would they care when they see it? I mean: ok you see he is wrong, but would you change your behaviour then? would you ignore the person or rather not have contact with him? Its more the state of mind of people I am wondering about, not the fact if they really notice it.

But that could also not be a hypocricy issue but more of a personality one. Some people are just happy all the time (I hate them too ) or they just don't want to show you a morose face when they meet you or their life sucks and they feel miserable yet they'll hide this and end up over-compensating instead or there could be a myriad reasons and have nothing to do with you or what they really feel or think about you.

And as for someone telling you "I love you/like you" to your face and then acting or saying things differently when you're not there, I think that that's beyond hypocrisy..it's already lying or a real deception. And personally, I prefer that people tell me that they don't like me rather than having them pretend that they do when they don't....then at least I'd know what to expect..the worst part of course is realising that you've been fooled.

About people changing behavior once they realise there's something off with the other person...I think it largely depends on their mind-set or the kind of people they really are... most will probably be open-minded about it and will not drop nor ignore you once they realise that you're different. That's my guess or what I would do but like I said, Astilius can probably shed more light on this. Btw, how often do you wonder what people think of you cos you mentioned this earlier? Does it really matter what they think? I'm just curious.....

casandra

[Astilius]

pito, on Apr 12 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?

casandra, on Apr 13 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

It’s probably one of the positive outcomes of having AS, I think they’re probably more “honest” and wouldn’t engage in any form of “acceptable” deception just to maintain social harmony. But we need to ask Astilius about this too.

Yes, people pick up that I'm not 'normal' quite fast. I can come across as rude, arrogant, dismissive, shy and "weird".
I can be very blunt and direct, I can look like I'm ignoring you or near refuse to look at you. I can stare at one aspect of you (say, if you had a mole on your face or anything like that) or watch your mouth rather than your eyes.
My social skills are terrible, my turn taking in conversations is difficult and in conversations with more than just one other person I will have extreme trouble. If I don't care for your topic of conversation I may very well not take any part in the conversation and do something else. If we're having a discussion and the topic of conversation drifts to something else and I'm not done with the original topic I will drag it back until I am done, even though everyone else is done. I usually don't notice that others are wanting to move on but even if I do I may not care that much and need to complete it for my sake. I can talk about the same stuff over and over again.

My honesty can be a problem. People don't actually want honesty but I'm not very good at deception (I had to learn to lie and I'm still not good at it).
AS folk seem to act with integrity and honesty. These are two traits that I hold great value in, even though I see corruption and dishonesty almost everywhere. Office politics I see as utterly disgusting and refuse to act in such an underhand manner.
I see people promoted because they are stupid but pose no career threat to the person doing the promotion and see good people held down because they would be a threat. I won't act in this way. This combined with my honesty means that people seem to fear me and also try hold me back. Apparently, one common trait of AS folk is that they are employed at several levels below their ability level. I can attest to this and firmly believe it's because people fear their ability and integrity.


As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.

[pito]

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But that could also not be a hypocricy issue but more of a personality one. Some people are just happy all the time (I hate them too )

Yeah, but I wasnt thinking about those people, they are just like that.

Its just that a lot of people put on their poker face and act stupid or friendly while you know they arent like that.
Anway, I never liked the hypocrisy idea of you need to be friendly the whole time etc... By this I do not mean that I am a bully or unfriendly towards strangers, but simply mean that I will not act friendly and all too happy in front of people that dislike me or that I dislike. I will still be respectfull, but will not act that friendly.

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As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.

When I read this then I recognise myself haha
I also want to know every detail and keep on discussing it.
And by discussing it I do mean discussing it and not "wanting to be right" the whole time. A lot of people are misleaded by my drive to know stuff and wanting to talk about it with wanting to be right the whole time. People sometimes do not get the fact that I want to more know then just a simple yes it is like this or no its the other way around and thats it.
I need answers.
Thats what I like in real debates with people that are like that too: they are fiercy in their discussion but are not being personal or are not shouting or getting mad or something like that.

Edited by pito, 14 April 2009 - 06:43 AM.

[casandra]

Astilius, on Apr 14 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

My honesty can be a problem. People don't actually want honesty but I'm not very good at deception (I had to learn to lie and I'm still not good at it).
AS folk seem to act with integrity and honesty. These are two traits that I hold great value in, even though I see corruption and dishonesty almost everywhere. Office politics I see as utterly disgusting and refuse to act in such an underhand manner.
I see people promoted because they are stupid but pose no career threat to the person doing the promotion and see good people held down because they would be a threat. I won't act in this way. This combined with my honesty means that people seem to fear me and also try hold me back. Apparently, one common trait of AS folk is that they are employed at several levels below their ability level. I can attest to this and firmly believe it's because people fear their ability and integrity.


As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.

Hey Astilius,

You’re back. Thanks for more of your insight and for continuing this discussion. Just a couple of points in response to what you wrote....it’s not hard to believe that folks with AS get jobs well below their ability level and you could be right too about some stupid management people or people with influence fearing your ability and integrity. But I have to say (too) that it depends first on what kinds of jobs we are talking about. If they require a lot of people interaction then you need a person with great people skills…finance, sales, advertising, human resources, entertainment…..how about teaching? Imagine giving a lecture to or discussing with 200 smart-alecs and what about the healthcare professions, the military, law enforcement?

Most jobs now require “being a good team player, having excellent communication skills, functioning magnificently under unimaginable stress”. And then what about during job interviews when you need to put your best face forward ? Itwouldn't be surprising if there’s a high incidence of unemployment among AS-affected people. And if one’s lucky and manages to get in, the workplace environment nowadays could stress-out even the best of the NTs, I just wonder how the AS folks would fare - better or worse? You don’t play office politics, this one I can understand, but what about following orders? How do you take authority or hierarchy?

And which jobs would AS-affected people excel in? I suppose the best jobs are those that are the main focus of your interest (your obsession), that’s logical, I guess, cos by the time you reach the age for job hunting, you’d already be an expert in that field…. perhaps even those close to you who’d have been hearing about it from you all those years are probably just as qualified…

And Astilius, I have to disagree with you about the NTs being flighty in their thoughts (that’s probably only me or those with a lot of imagination and creativity) I think that a lot of NTs are organised, focused and can pay attention to details as well as have a handle on the whole picture.

casandra

[casandra]

pito, on Apr 14 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

Yeah, but I wasnt thinking about those people, they are just like that.

Its just that a lot of people put on their poker face and act stupid or friendly while you know they arent like that.
Anway, I never liked the hypocrisy idea of you need to be friendly the whole time etc... By this I do not mean that I am a bully or unfriendly towards strangers, but simply mean that I will not act friendly and all too happy in front of people that dislike me or that I dislike. I will still be respectfull, but will not act that friendly.

But you are such a picky customer, pito ….you don’t want poker-faced, not stupid nor friendly-faced…..so what other face is left then? Besides, friendliness or the appearance of being friendly (or too friendly) could be a cultural thing too….I guess most of you Europeans (except those from the south) look “cold” to us north Americans and we probably look so “friendly” to you?

Quote

I also want to know every detail and keep on discussing it.
And by discussing it I do mean discussing it and not "wanting to be right" the whole time. A lot of people are misleaded by my drive to know stuff and wanting to talk about it with wanting to be right the whole time. People sometimes do not get the fact that I want to more know then just a simple yes it is like this or no its the other way around and thats it.
I need answers.
Thats what I like in real debates with people that are like that too: they are fiercy in their discussion but are not being personal or are not shouting or getting mad or something like that.

How about infusing some dry wit and sarcastic humour in the discussion....is that another no-no for you pito…..sometimes I think you’re too serious dude. I agree that engaging in a good discussion doesn’t mean one has to win or score points, usually hearing a different POV or learning some new insight or being challenged to think more is enough. And as long as there are interesting points raised or questions asked then we can continue discussing…..even till eternity...

[Astilius]

casandra, on Apr 15 2009, 04:10 AM, said:

Hey Astilius,

You’re back. Thanks for more of your insight and for continuing this discussion. Just a couple of points in response to what you wrote....it’s not hard to believe that folks with AS get jobs well below their ability level and you could be right too about some stupid management people or people with influence fearing your ability and integrity. But I have to say (too) that it depends first on what kinds of jobs we are talking about. If they require a lot of people interaction then you need a person with great people skills…finance, sales, advertising, human resources, entertainment…..how about teaching? Imagine giving a lecture to or discussing with 200 smart-alecs and what about the healthcare professions, the military, law enforcement?

Most jobs now require “being a good team player, having excellent communication skills, functioning magnificently under unimaginable stress”. And then what about during job interviews when you need to put your best face forward ? Itwouldn't be surprising if there’s a high incidence of unemployment among AS-affected people. And if one’s lucky and manages to get in, the workplace environment nowadays could stress-out even the best of the NTs, I just wonder how the AS folks would fare - better or worse? You don’t play office politics, this one I can understand, but what about following orders? How do you take authority or hierarchy?

And which jobs would AS-affected people excel in? I suppose the best jobs are those that are the main focus of your interest (your obsession), that’s logical, I guess, cos by the time you reach the age for job hunting, you’d already be an expert in that field…. perhaps even those close to you who’d have been hearing about it from you all those years are probably just as qualified…

And Astilius, I have to disagree with you about the NTs being flighty in their thoughts (that’s probably only me or those with a lot of imagination and creativity) I think that a lot of NTs are organised, focused and can pay attention to details as well as have a handle on the whole picture.

casandra

People management, for me, isn't an issue. A lot of people seem to mistake being able to manage people fairly and being their friend. The former I can do, the latter I cannot.
As for hiererchy, AS folk can be like anyone, some enjoy a hierarchy and the order of things and others have trouble with authority. I don't think AS is a major factor in that, though it can reinforce some behaviours.
I've given talks in front of hundreds of people with no issue. I tend to treat people evenly and am honest with them. I have lead teams successfully in the past and have had people request that they come with me when I move departments - I take that as some indicator that people are not averse to my style of management, even though I don't want to be their friend.

Job interviews - now, I do get unstuck here. I am beyond dreadful at them. I can, at my best, get an interview for any job I want. I will fail 99% of job interviews, though. That, intense short term thing that interviews are about is beyond me. I tell them what they ask and give examples of my ability and suitability for the jobs - that seems as if it's not what they want. I can't often deliver what they need. I, naturally, assume a job interview is about how well you could do the job but it's not and it's not something I can do very well at all. I'm also not very good with strangers.

As for being flighty, I mean this as a generalization. NT folk seem less foucsed than most AS folk but there are, of course, exceptions in both camps. As I've said in a previous post I think AS folk and NT folk compliment each other in abilities, not that one if globablly better than the other. As a group we are stronger than each camp is seperately.

[pito]

casandra, on Apr 15 2009, 05:20 AM, said:

But you are such a picky customer, pito ….you don’t want poker-faced, not stupid nor friendly-faced…..so what other face is left then? Besides, friendliness or the appearance of being friendly (or too friendly) could be a cultural thing too….I guess most of you Europeans (except those from the south) look “cold” to us north Americans and we probably look so “friendly” to you?

Its hard to really explain what I mean.
Anyway, I didnt mean people you do not know, but people you do know==> thats when I dislike the friendly face and stuff when you know they do not like you.

Quote

How about infusing some dry wit and sarcastic humour in the discussion....is that another no-no for you pito…..sometimes I think you’re too serious dude. I agree that engaging in a good discussion doesn’t mean one has to win or score points, usually hearing a different POV or learning some new insight or being challenged to think more is enough. And as long as there are interesting points raised or questions asked then we can continue discussing…..even till eternity...

dry wit and sarcasme is great, I am a very sarcastic person...

[casandra]

pito, on Apr 15 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

casandra, on Apr 15 2009, 05:20 AM, said:

But you are such a picky customer, pito ….you don’t want poker-faced, not stupid nor friendly-faced…..so what other face is left then? Besides, friendliness or the appearance of being friendly (or too friendly) could be a cultural thing too….I guess most of you Europeans (except those from the south) look “cold” to us north Americans and we probably look so “friendly” to you?

Its hard to really explain what I mean.
Anyway, I didnt mean people you do not know, but people you do know==> thats when I dislike the friendly face and stuff when you know they do not like you.

Actually, I think I know what you mean. But how do you know (or can confirm) that a person doesn't like you when s/he only shows you a "friendly" face...thru a third party? body language? Could you just be speculating or being very sensitive or over-imaginative?

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dry wit and sarcasme is great, I am a very sarcastic person...

Then we should form a club...and I will appoint myself as CEO.....

[pito]

casandra, on Apr 15 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Actually, I think I know what you mean. But how do you know (or can confirm) that a person doesn't like you when s/he only shows you a "friendly" face...thru a third party? body language? Could you just be speculating or being very sensitive or over-imaginative?

True, you do not always know this, but thats also a sort of hypocrisy: people acting like they like you, while they dont.

But sometimes you just know it because you hear it from others or you can spot it by the way they act at certain moments.

I know you need to be very carefull with it, but I am.
But sometimes its just obvious they do not like you or are acting hypocrit.
A good example is the "end of the year or the end of a schoolperiod" celebration, moment.
==> all of a sudden all those people in your class are friendly with you , wanne meet you later on etc.. while during the year(s) you were in the same class they never even listened to you or ingored you etc... and all of a sudden the act friendly and wanne stay in touch etc.. lol

But you hit a hard point there: how to know if they (dis)like you?
Good point!
Sometimes I just think: let them know, tell the person you dislike him... but what if it is your boss or coworker etc... then you have another problem so its a difficult matter.

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Then we should form a club...and I will appoint myself as CEO.....

yeah we should

[casandra]

pito, on Apr 15 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

But you hit a hard point there: how to know if they (dis)like you?
Good point!
Sometimes I just think: let them know, tell the person you dislike him... but what if it is your boss or coworker etc... then you have another problem so its a difficult matter.

But can you really equate like and dislike here? I think it's easier to show if we like someone or something for that matter. We have a tendency to hide more our dislike than our liking for people cos liking (someone) is a positive emotion (unless it's the pathological kind) which is not difficult to express at all yet otoh, it's also easier to fake and I guess that's your point....but it could be paranoia too...

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Then we should form a club...and I will appoint myself as CEO.....

Quote

yeah we should

and those hypocrites who acted oh so friendly and wanna stay in touch with you after the school year's over, hope you replied to them with a very heavy dose of sarcasm, otherwise, you can't be in this club.......

[pito]

Quote

and those hypocrites who acted oh so friendly and wanna stay in touch with you after the school year's over, hope you replied to them with a very heavy dose of sarcasm, otherwise, you can't be in this club...

I sure did!

[casandra]

pito, on Apr 16 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

Quote

and those hypocrites who acted oh so friendly and wanna stay in touch with you after the school year's over, hope you replied to them with a very heavy dose of sarcasm, otherwise, you can't be in this club...

I sure did!

Then you've just become a bona fide member of our club ...any sarcastic last words?

[casandra]

Astilius, on Apr 15 2009, 06:58 AM, said:

People management, for me, isn't an issue. A lot of people seem to mistake being able to manage people fairly and being their friend. The former I can do, the latter I cannot.
As for hiererchy, AS folk can be like anyone, some enjoy a hierarchy and the order of things and others have trouble with authority. I don't think AS is a major factor in that, though it can reinforce some behaviours.
I've given talks in front of hundreds of people with no issue. I tend to treat people evenly and am honest with them. I have lead teams successfully in the past and have had people request that they come with me when I move departments - I take that as some indicator that people are not averse to my style of management, even though I don't want to be their friend.

Hi Astilius,

Oh yeah, I can see how you could talk to a big audience without getting anxious cos you can make it almost impersonal e.g. don’t look at people's eyes or focus your sight on something else like those faded ugly heavy drapes at the back end of the room, concentrate on what you’re saying or read the computer screen etc. But what about your management style, is it also impersonal? I’ve never done any personnel management and I suppose there’s really no one “right” way to manage people but I think that a good manager is flexible enough to choose a style fitted to the kind of people s/he has to deal with and the goals to be achieved. I guess if you’re in the academe or in a lab so most probably the group you manage is not so big….so which style works out for you? The autocratic but benevolent dictatorship kind? You decide, then direct, supervise or even delegate tasks and then set dealines? No mush, no non-sense, direct and strictly goal-oriented? And how about the issue which will really test your management skills: conflict resolution.

I think that we’ve touched on this topic in one way or another in this forum. Most PIs have the talent, the competence and knowledge to set up their lab, organise their projects (stretch them out till retirement) and produce outcomes which hopefully benefit society (not just for their glory) and yet some of them fail at handling their own lab personnel. Usually, lab people function well enough on our own, however, all you need is one person to destabilise the whole group dynamics and if you have more than one, you can just imagine what can possibly happen. So how would you resolve conflicts among your people without drowning in them yourself?

And lastly, I guess making and keeping friends can be a great challenge for you (the same is true for many NTs too), so how long does a stranger stays a stranger to you? Forever or until after a certain amount of time for whatever parameters you consider?

casandra

[Astilius]

I'm not necesarrily cold and autocratic. I try to be friendly and approachable but I'm not their friend. This distance is useful, I think.
Conflict resolution is always tricky but if you are more senior then you can force people to look at what is reasonable (far harder to do in peer based relationships) and then make even handed judgements. If people realize that they are bound by what is reasonable then most things get resolved easily. Where someone is being pig headed then when this is pointed out then they often don't like it but will back down. Often the culture of an institution is harder to deal with than people's attitudes (and can directly affect how people work no matter how good a manager you are).

I'm all about reason. If I am directing people and someone comes up with a better way of doing things than me or a clever idea then I'm very much in favour of doing that - whatever works. It had the benefit that they see that they have direct input and are rewarded for their effort. I don't much like the "do as I say" style of management as people then have no vested interest in making things work well, in fact they may have an interest in things not working well.

Making and keeping friends is a problem for me. I find it very difficult to make friends and I have no real capacity to keep them. I am intensely loyal to my friends and that leaves me open to abuse
I don't actually have much of a need for friends, though.
I am married and have a baby but beyond that I have no friends.
But I can get into trouble when I get to know people - I don't know when you are someone's friend and have found asking them if they are my friend isn't a good way forward.
There are people I respect and chat to about things but I am not clear if that can be regarded as friendship. As much as I enjoy their company I am often glad to be alone again and have no need to see these people in social situations.
There are a few people I would like to be friends with but the practicalities of that seem beyond me.
I've had many many conversations with my wife about friendship and if someone is my friend or trying to be my friend. I have the same conversations over and over again and it's something I don't get any better at. The impaired ability to read non-verbal cues and all the other AS traits get in my way and I can't see what you folk see in other people.

The impaired ability to make and keep friends and to be open to abuses is a common theme among AS folk.