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#16 pito

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 03:29 AM

but still: we all have a form of autism, but not all the same way.

A real autist will not be able to function normal , while lighter form of autism is no problem.. I cant really imagine that people like Einstein were real autists.

An other thing I always wonder about is the following:

Sometimes they define autism as a sort of "living in your own world" syndrom, but arent all great minds like this?

...Well like said I am not a psychologist


You're being quite offensive.

We don't all have a form of autism. Autistic spectrum conditions are a spectrum of conditions and we are all on the spectrum but that's not the same as saying that we are all autistic. To make a comparison, sexuality is also on a spectrum but would say that everyone is homosexual?


I have no intentions to be offensive or to irritate someone, maybe it is writen wrong or interpretated wrong (do not forget that english is not my native langauge). I do not know to what you are refering? to the fact that I mentioned "real autism" ? and what it so bad about that? or the fact that I stated that we are all a bit autistic?
If you do feel attacked or.. then let me know, I can change the text or explain what I ment.
Anyway by real autist I mean someone who is severely autistic and not able to function without help.
And yes, we are all autistic. Every person has a bit of autism in his (according do some experts, other may disagree).
The main problem is also how the define autism, when do we call someone autistic? There is still no general theory that is accepted by every specialist.
Some people have a habit of eating fish every friday... when they arent able to eat fish due to some reason, they feel bad... is this a form of autism or just a habbit that had been broken?
Or what about daydreaming, escaping in our own world as a child? (some define this as a form of autism too..especially when you do not seem to have real friends and do not seem to care about it... but cant this simply be a characteristic of that child, person?)

Its not always easy to know what autism is and who has it and then we have not even started to discuss the forms there are...

Anyway, I am just giving my view on the matter , based on things I saw, learned by reading etc...and I have absolutely no intenions to offense someone.




PS.

To make a comparison, sexuality is also on a spectrum but would say that everyone is homosexual?



I find this an intersting quote: newer insight on the sexuality makes experts believe that everyone is homosexual... we are all bisexual according to new insights on the sexual behaviour. Only in some people its more prone that in others.
But this is offcourse a theory, new research has to be done.

Edited by pito, 31 March 2009 - 03:37 AM.

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#17 Doki

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 03:38 AM

Yes, we all might be having one or more of them to certain extent.

Look here : http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/7967851.stm
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#18 Telomerase

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 05:07 AM

Nabi is quite right, overdiagnosis is a common issue now, to the point of ridicule. Sometimes the old terms are more appropriate. Sometimes it's not depression, it's sadness; it's not ADD, it's dreaminess; it's not Asperger's, it's being eccentric or shy. A bunch of people who really have problems with themselves will suffer because of diagnosis devaluation. We can't go that much overboard, fixing all our feelings and faults that make us human. Nobody's perfect ;>

Edited by Telomerase, 31 March 2009 - 05:10 AM.

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#19 pito

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 05:28 AM

Nabi is quite right, overdiagnosis is a common issue now, to the point of ridicule. Sometimes the old terms are more appropriate. Sometimes it's not depression, it's sadness; it's not ADD, it's dreaminess; it's not Asperger's, it's being eccentric or shy. A bunch of people who really have problems with themselves will suffer because of diagnosis devaluation. We can't go that much overboard, fixing all our feelings and faults that make us human. Nobody's perfect ;>


True.

ADHD is a well known example: all of a sudden every child has it...

But the problem is most of the times: where to draw the line.

If you don't know it, then ask it! Better to ask and look foolish to some than not ask and stay stupid.


#20 hobglobin

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 05:57 AM

Nabi is quite right, overdiagnosis is a common issue now, to the point of ridicule. Sometimes the old terms are more appropriate. Sometimes it's not depression, it's sadness; it's not ADD, it's dreaminess; it's not Asperger's, it's being eccentric or shy. A bunch of people who really have problems with themselves will suffer because of diagnosis devaluation. We can't go that much overboard, fixing all our feelings and faults that make us human. Nobody's perfect ;>


True.

ADHD is a well known example: all of a sudden every child has it...

But the problem is most of the times: where to draw the line.

It's also a political topic For example female hysteria was long time a only-women disease and even used to marginalize and sanction political/social active (or for this time revolutionary or non-conformist) women. Now it's an almost forgotten diagnosis...
And today it's an economic topic, as for every new "invented" disease expensive medicine can be sold. ADHD is a good example, and Ritalin (Methylphenidate) the pseudo-solution.

Edited by hobglobin, 31 March 2009 - 05:58 AM.


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#21 casandra

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 07:12 PM

Nabi is quite right, overdiagnosis is a common issue now, to the point of ridicule. Sometimes the old terms are more appropriate. Sometimes it's not depression, it's sadness; it's not ADD, it's dreaminess; it's not Asperger's, it's being eccentric or shy. A bunch of people who really have problems with themselves will suffer because of diagnosis devaluation. We can't go that much overboard, fixing all our feelings and faults that make us human. Nobody's perfect ;>

But what is the norm anyways, it's just a human construct, right? Daydreaming is ok unless while walking, you're so into it that you cross a busy intersection when the traffic light turned red and you get hit by an oil tanker which slid and turned hitting a garbage truck, spilling oil over stretches of road (not to mention the garbage) and causing a hundred car pile-up.....being sad is ok until you start building a bomb in your basement or blowing your brains out......what we seem to be forgetting is the reason why most of these conditions/syndromes are being "over-diagnosed"....because they interfere with "normal" functioning or at least trying to live a normal life.

If a child started missing the normal milestones, a concerned parent will start looking around for answers. Usually, early detection and intervention would mean a better chance for management or control of the condition esp if it's incurable/untreatable like autism...hence, a better chance for normalcy later on. Yes, some people would suffer bec of the stigma or this "over-diagnosis" but on the flipside, a bunch of people would also benefit, if they were diagnosed (hopefully correctly) and could put a name to what they think is wrong with them or with their loved ones.

And most of us have some symptoms (mild, severe,) so Pito asks, where do we draw the line..shouldn't we be relying on the professionals for this....cos right now, we're all dabbling in psychology...our own take i.e.

great discussion guys... :D

Edited by casandra, 31 March 2009 - 07:17 PM.

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#22 Doki

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 08:31 PM

But what is the norm anyways, it's just a human construct, right? Daydreaming is ok unless while walking, you're so into it that you cross a busy intersection when the traffic light turned red and you get hit by an oil tanker which slid and turned hitting a garbage truck, spilling oil over stretches of road (not to mention the garbage) and causing a hundred car pile-up.....

Yeah, same is for OCD - obsessive compulsive.

I take photos of anything to everything I eat. :angry: What is the limit? Some for example like quoting quotes. . :D
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#23 Astilius

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 01:39 AM

Nabi is quite right, overdiagnosis is a common issue now, to the point of ridicule. Sometimes the old terms are more appropriate. Sometimes it's not depression, it's sadness; it's not ADD, it's dreaminess; it's not Asperger's, it's being eccentric or shy. A bunch of people who really have problems with themselves will suffer because of diagnosis devaluation. We can't go that much overboard, fixing all our feelings and faults that make us human. Nobody's perfect ;>

But what is the norm anyways, it's just a human construct, right? Daydreaming is ok unless while walking, you're so into it that you cross a busy intersection when the traffic light turned red and you get hit by an oil tanker which slid and turned hitting a garbage truck, spilling oil over stretches of road (not to mention the garbage) and causing a hundred car pile-up.....being sad is ok until you start building a bomb in your basement or blowing your brains out......what we seem to be forgetting is the reason why most of these conditions/syndromes are being "over-diagnosed"....because they interfere with "normal" functioning or at least trying to live a normal life.

If a child started missing the normal milestones, a concerned parent will start looking around for answers. Usually, early detection and intervention would mean a better chance for management or control of the condition esp if it's incurable/untreatable like autism...hence, a better chance for normalcy later on. Yes, some people would suffer bec of the stigma or this "over-diagnosis" but on the flipside, a bunch of people would also benefit, if they were diagnosed (hopefully correctly) and could put a name to what they think is wrong with them or with their loved ones.

And most of us have some symptoms (mild, severe,) so Pito asks, where do we draw the line..shouldn't we be relying on the professionals for this....cos right now, we're all dabbling in psychology...our own take i.e.

great discussion guys... :)


No, there is no cure for autism but that isn't to say that it's untreatable. There are treatments that help some of the symptoms and can help drive up the quality of life for those affected.

"Normal" isn't a useful descriptor. The autistic community devised the word, "neurotypical", to describe those who didn't have autism and it's been adopted in the wider scientific community (it's a better descriptor than, "wild type").

There are conditions that are over diagnosed but I'm certain autism isn't one of them. In fact, Asperger's Syndrome is quite hard to achieve a diagnosis at times and the battery of tools available for diagnosing are robust.
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#24 casandra

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 05:59 AM

No, there is no cure for autism but that isn't to say that it's untreatable. There are treatments that help some of the symptoms and can help drive up the quality of life for those affected.

"Normal" isn't a useful descriptor. The autistic community devised the word, "neurotypical", to describe those who didn't have autism and it's been adopted in the wider scientific community (it's a better descriptor than, "wild type").

There are conditions that are over diagnosed but I'm certain autism isn't one of them. In fact, Asperger's Syndrome is quite hard to achieve a diagnosis at times and the battery of tools available for diagnosing are robust.

Hi Astilius,
Thanks for the info.....yep "neurotypical" is more apt and I agree that autism isn't over-diagnosed but perhaps ADHD is. I read somewhere that Asperger's symptoms disappear with time, perhaps you can shed more light about this condition.

casandra
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#25 casandra

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 06:02 AM

But what is the norm anyways, it's just a human construct, right? Daydreaming is ok unless while walking, you're so into it that you cross a busy intersection when the traffic light turned red and you get hit by an oil tanker which slid and turned hitting a garbage truck, spilling oil over stretches of road (not to mention the garbage) and causing a hundred car pile-up.....

Yeah, same is for OCD - obsessive compulsive.

I take photos of anything to everything I eat. :D What is the limit? Some for example like quoting quotes. . :lol:

:)..really cute...it's not normal not to be obsessed about something, eh? :lol:
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#26 Telomerase

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:48 AM

I am obsessed about food, too :)
Really I am worried that our definition of normal gets too narrow, that we dismiss people who are different than us, telling there's something wrong with their heads. Other is fitting everyone to the same norm. When I was a kid, some would call me an unruly, bad girl, just because I was asking difficult questions. It's always the same, actually. People would like get other people, who stand out, in the line. Or cut their heads off, because they stick out :lol: So overdiagnosis can be a problem. Would we put Ann of Green Gables on Ritalin?

Edited by Telomerase, 01 April 2009 - 07:50 AM.

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#27 pito

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:37 AM

I am obsessed about food, too :)
Really I am worried that our definition of normal gets too narrow, that we dismiss people who are different than us, telling there's something wrong with their heads. Other is fitting everyone to the same norm. When I was a kid, some would call me an unruly, bad girl, just because I was asking difficult questions. It's always the same, actually. People would like get other people, who stand out, in the line. Or cut their heads off, because they stick out :lol: So overdiagnosis can be a problem. Would we put Ann of Green Gables on Ritalin?


Well people are sheeps and behave like it... follow the leader... if you are a bit different then you have a problem in the days we live in.
(the peer pressure is another factor I find very intersting, but this is another discussion , like when you see someone lying down on the street in a bussy street it will take longer till someone helps the person then when on a deserted road were less people pass by or another strange fact: when a group of people is sitting in a room where smoke is passing under the door, they will not react or better: they will reacter a lot later then when there is only 1 or 2 persons in that room... strangle enough and many other strange examples..)

Anyway: if its not like the majority , its odd and bad... this is how most people tend to think. It even frightens them to act like they really are.


Before adhd was well known a kid who was "more" active was simply a more active kid... now...

And also standards changed: people expect so much more from kids
I always give the following example: when you walk in a restaurant you sometimes see people sitting there with young childrens for hours and when the children complain or start moving around the parents are angry and tell them to quit and be silent... Well I always tend to go ahead and tell those parents: a child is not capable of being silent for hours like an adult.... etc... When you have small children take them to mcdonalds or whatever but not some fancy restaurant where they have to be silent and not move for ages.

This is just an example of how things are changing and how people seem to have strange ideas lately about how children should be.
Just accept it that a child is not silent and it has to move around...

If you don't know it, then ask it! Better to ask and look foolish to some than not ask and stay stupid.


#28 Astilius

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:58 AM

No, there is no cure for autism but that isn't to say that it's untreatable. There are treatments that help some of the symptoms and can help drive up the quality of life for those affected.

"Normal" isn't a useful descriptor. The autistic community devised the word, "neurotypical", to describe those who didn't have autism and it's been adopted in the wider scientific community (it's a better descriptor than, "wild type").

There are conditions that are over diagnosed but I'm certain autism isn't one of them. In fact, Asperger's Syndrome is quite hard to achieve a diagnosis at times and the battery of tools available for diagnosing are robust.

Hi Astilius,
Thanks for the info.....yep "neurotypical" is more apt and I agree that autism isn't over-diagnosed but perhaps ADHD is. I read somewhere that Asperger's symptoms disappear with time, perhaps you can shed more light about this condition.

casandra


No problem. You may very well be right with ADHD. I think ADHD is something that teachers make a "diagnosis" about and it seems to stick more than trained professionals do. But that seems more about finding reasons why certain teachers want to explain lack of success with certain children. But I have no real data to support this hypothesis.

As for Asperger's symptoms - well, yes and no. The symptoms don't disappear as the individual gets older it's just that, generally, the individual learns coping strategies. Let's take myself as an example: my eye contact is shocking. I don't really know what it's for and it makes me very uncomfortable. But I have learned to fake it to an extent because I now know that, for some reason, it's expected. I have also learned facial expressions. I am not great at recognizing some of the subtler ones but I am far better at it that I used to be. So, while I'm as autistic as I ever was I have learned to cope in the neurotypical world over time.

But if you have any questions about AS (Asperger's Syndrome) then don't hesitate to ask. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there that must be terribly confusing to anyone who doesn't have any dealings with the condition.
If I can help with that then I'm happy to.
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#29 pito

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:09 AM

No, there is no cure for autism but that isn't to say that it's untreatable. There are treatments that help some of the symptoms and can help drive up the quality of life for those affected.

"Normal" isn't a useful descriptor. The autistic community devised the word, "neurotypical", to describe those who didn't have autism and it's been adopted in the wider scientific community (it's a better descriptor than, "wild type").

There are conditions that are over diagnosed but I'm certain autism isn't one of them. In fact, Asperger's Syndrome is quite hard to achieve a diagnosis at times and the battery of tools available for diagnosing are robust.

Hi Astilius,
Thanks for the info.....yep "neurotypical" is more apt and I agree that autism isn't over-diagnosed but perhaps ADHD is. I read somewhere that Asperger's symptoms disappear with time, perhaps you can shed more light about this condition.

casandra


No problem. You may very well be right with ADHD. I think ADHD is something that teachers make a "diagnosis" about and it seems to stick more than trained professionals do. But that seems more about finding reasons why certain teachers want to explain lack of success with certain children. But I have no real data to support this hypothesis.

As for Asperger's symptoms - well, yes and no. The symptoms don't disappear as the individual gets older it's just that, generally, the individual learns coping strategies. Let's take myself as an example: my eye contact is shocking. I don't really know what it's for and it makes me very uncomfortable. But I have learned to fake it to an extent because I now know that, for some reason, it's expected. I have also learned facial expressions. I am not great at recognizing some of the subtler ones but I am far better at it that I used to be. So, while I'm as autistic as I ever was I have learned to cope in the neurotypical world over time.

But if you have any questions about AS (Asperger's Syndrome) then don't hesitate to ask. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there that must be terribly confusing to anyone who doesn't have any dealings with the condition.
If I can help with that then I'm happy to.


What do you mean exactly by "shocking" eye contact?


and what about High-functioning autism ? Some experts still arent conviced that Asperger is different from this High-functioning autism.

If you don't know it, then ask it! Better to ask and look foolish to some than not ask and stay stupid.


#30 Astilius

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:18 AM

I have no intentions to be offensive or to irritate someone, maybe it is writen wrong or interpretated wrong (do not forget that english is not my native langauge). I do not know to what you are refering? to the fact that I mentioned "real autism" ? and what it so bad about that? or the fact that I stated that we are all a bit autistic?



PS.

To make a comparison, sexuality is also on a spectrum but would say that everyone is homosexual?



I find this an intersting quote: newer insight on the sexuality makes experts believe that everyone is homosexual... we are all bisexual according to new insights on the sexual behaviour. Only in some people its more prone that in others.
But this is offcourse a theory, new research has to be done.


Ah. I think this may be a language issue. Your use of the word, "real" could be taken that you are saying that individuals withless severe symptoms have "fake" autism. I can see that this is not what you meant.

Hmmm, but no, I don't think it is useful to say that we are all autistic. To say that would downplay what autism is and to the disservice to those who struggle with it. Yes, we are all on the spectrum but like the homosexuality thing it isn't useful to say that we are all homosexual. It would make the descriptor meaningless.
To say we are all bisexual is more true but again suffers from a lack of being useful. Most people are comfortably heterosexual, yes it's not a digital state in that they either are 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual but the heterosexual aspect of them overwhelms the minor component.

Look at it this way, if we are all autistic then no-one is autistic. Just as we all have a cardiovascular system thus it is a pointless description to say that we are all cardiovascularic as a descriptor as no-one is acardiovascularic.
There comes a point, on the autism spectrum, that someone is diagnosable as autistic and that's the point where it becomes a useful descriptor.

I hope that I've explained that in a useful manner.

I am a proponent of neurodiversity. I don't think that autism is, necessarily, a bad thing. It's where it affects the individual's quality of life that it becomes a problem. I feel that I have many benefits to being autistic but others find my difficulties with the neurotypical social world to be a weakness.


Does that help? :)
To the last, I grapple with thee; from Hell's heart, I stab at thee; for hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.




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