24 replies to this topic

[Ameya P]

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

Its not a secret that the nosocomial infections are worse in India... The resistance bacteria or the protein (the gene for it) comes primeraly from India.
(origin of the gene is south asia according to the research)

Please send me the research paper for this.

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

if you are from India, you should know that there are still a lot of dirty places (hospitals) where the medical care is not really good/clean.

Pito, so all clean hospitals have no nosocomial infections???

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

Its for example allready very clear that the medical tourism to India is becoming a big problems. If you look at the problems in the UK==> almost all due to medical tourism. All the problem cases due to resitant bacteria are almost all related to India (people that came for India with the bacterium, holding the gene for resistance)

For this, I find no basis. Like you said, Medical tourism is high, so the numbers will be high. But you cant say all antibiotic resistant bacteria originate from India or Asia or America for that matter.

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

And why is the NDM-1 a big problems and the others not? Very simple: NDM-1 offers much more protection then other protein... Other proteins only work against a few antibioticclasses, NDM-1 against many more.

Look up Burkholderia, is that Indian as well?

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

And yes, its not only India , Bangladesh and Pakistan play an important role too. And yes, India is going to review certain treatments

And yes, India isnt the only country doing things wrong. China is also doing things wrong.. the thing is:china is "more closed" , so not much information is gathered from china..
Same with african countries: major problems there too.. but less research, so less information.
The problem with India is the medical tourism etc... and the "industrial revolution" over there.

These are just patronizing statements.

pito, on 20 April 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

BTW: I never said that the biggest problems are caused by medical doctors prescribing antibiotics... like said: fishindustry for example plays a major role too.

And what do you mean with "How exactly are you supporting the use of alternative medicines, if you are bent upon using anibiotics?" Killing bacteria or getting rid off a bacterial infection is done bj antibiotics.. so I dont get the idea? You mean other medicins that are not antibiotics but work against bacteria? I dont understand what you mean by this?

You did say that antibiotics are prescribed on a regular basis by Medical doctors (who spend years in medical school... )
What is your idea of alternative medicines? Do you think that the only way of ending infections is using antibiotics?

I will agree that central healthcare in India needs improvement, training and regulation but convicting a nation/ region for "granting antibiotic resistance" is like being a 10 yr old and saying "I dint do it, He did it". Modern Medicine being practised around the world is Western in origin, so should I blame the technology transfer methods adopted in the first place for all nosocomial infections? Why play this blame game, when we know that we all are responsible.

Our basic problem has been not understanding the potential of nature itself. Like Venter, who made synthetic DNA, but could not put it in a man-made cell, we are still too naive about how things work around us and within us.

[pito]

Did you read the lancet paper?

It answers a few of your questions.. like the non prescription use of antibiotics....
The link between England and India... This is not a coincidence.

And about the medical tourism:
NDM-1 Gene Spreading to Multiple Bacteria Species, Making Them Antibiotic-Resistant
Medical visas mark growth of Indian medical tourism
Medical tourism and New Delhi metallo β- lactamase 1- A concern and threat


I am not saying India is the only country to blame, but its clear there are major problems with sanitation in India.. A lot of the people are living in very dirty situations... (and yes thats not only in India the case, but India is more developed, has more money, has more oppertunities to handle things.. but it fails and a lot has to do with for example the caste system or the lack of rules , or not following them)

Like I said before: the use of antibiotics in fish/poultry for ages without a limit, the roses that are grown and the polution due to it. The industry thats poluting, tha plastics....

About the "so all clean hospitals have no nosocomial infections???"   In every hospital its possible to have infections yes. In clean ones less and the change of having a superbug is smaller.

You cant deny the fact there are many very dirty hospitals in India. The system with the different castes is also making things more difficult.
Whats your opinion then on the fact that cows defecate on streets and it stays there , same with garbage trown on the street.. water that is poluted .. Dead rats on the street ....
Major efforts are being made , I agree, but still a lot has to be done. And yes, this is not only the fault of India, Europe and USA play a role in this too.


And I never said all resistance bearing bacteria come from India or Azia.. But its no secret that a lot of the problem cases come from these countries.
Another example: the bird flu.... Why do you think it comes from Azia.. its because of the way how they handle their poultry...
The government has not the same strict rules in using antibiotics for example.
In China (like in India) they still treat fish with massive amounts of antibiotics.

Quote

You did say that antibiotics are prescribed on a regular basis by Medical doctors (who spend years in medical school... )
What is your idea of alternative medicines? Do you think that the only way of ending infections is using antibiotics?

I will agree that central healthcare in India needs improvement, training and regulation but convicting a nation/ region for "granting antibiotic resistance" is like being a 10 yr old and saying "I dint do it, He did it". Modern Medicine being practised around the world is Western in origin, so should I blame the technology transfer methods adopted in the first place for all nosocomial infections? Why play this blame game, when we know that we all are responsible.

Our basic problem has been not understanding the potential of nature itself. Like Venter, who made synthetic DNA, but could not put it in a man-made cell, we are still too naive about how things work around us and within us.

And how do you think you can end a bacterial infection without the use of a antibiotic substance?
I really dont understand your point. Give me an example ? it the end it all turns down on having a certain substance that kills the bacteria? (or weakens them)
Or do you mean we need to find substances that are antibiotics, but dont come from fungi or bacteria?

Or do you really believe in the more alternative therapy like putting "jars" on your back and making them vacuum so they stick on your back? Or the "trowing up" therapy used in India to "clean" the body?

And about the technology transfer: there is this transfer yes, but how its used is up to the receiver and the receiver has to take care of the propper judgement and thats where it goes wrong: still using too much antibiotics etc.. (like said before: treating fish with it... or poultry or...)
Non prescripted antibiotica is easy to get in India....

And there is no blame game... there are simple facts and those facts need to be taken in care.. India has allready started doing this by setting limits on how much antibiotica can be used in fish or poultry.. but it still has a long way to go.

Edited by pito, 21 April 2011 - 04:41 AM.

[Ameya P]

Pito,

I think you are making yup your mind on the basis of a One Paper and some documentaries you saw about India. I do agree to the fact that sanitation in India is not up to the global standards and that will definitely lead to more diseases. But then you cant say that majority of antibiotic resistance bacteria originate here/ or the problems start in India.


MRSA, Britain, 1961
Penicillin-Resistant Enterococcus 1983,
vancomycin-resistant enterococcus 1987,
Linezolid-Resistant Enterococcus  1990s,
Clindamycin-resistant C. difficile in New York, Arizona, Florida and Massachusetts between 1989 and 1992
Acinetobacter baumannii in patients at military medical facilities in Iraq/Kuwait region, 2005.

Would you say all these are also results of increasing medical tourism and prevalence of caste system in India?

Regarding the use of antibiotics in poultry and fisheries industries, there is definite need to stricter regulation on its use in the country and all over the world. Just because Europe bans 4 antibiotics (not all) in its feed in 2006, you cant go telling the world to stop using antibiotics.

Also, your blaming Asia for SARS/ Bird flu is insane. When you should be sympathizing with people and trying to help them out, in every way you can, saying that Asia is responsible for manufacturing H1N1 and spreading  it in the world, is insulting your understanding of the genetics.

The very fact that medical tourism is on a high in India answers your doubts of sanitation in hospitals. BTW, hospitals in India do not differentiate amongst patients on the basis of caste or "medical insurance".

Regulation in many areas is something India and China are struggling with at the moment. But you must realise, the expanse of the countries and how difficult it can be send a message across an area of 3,287,263 km2 (107 times bigger than Belgium) and atleast 30 major languages.

[Ameya P]

Regarding alternative therapies,

again you are basing your judgement on something you read/saw but dint understand.
Also, antibiotics is not the only way of treating bacteria.

Simple wiki search would tell you about

Phage therapy (practised in India and Soviet Union, before we climbed the antibiotics bandwagon)
Bioactive phytochemicals (something that was and is practised in India)
Use of plasma technology in wound healing.
   to name a few

I am quite sure that within our life times, the vacuum jars and cleansing bodies will make sense in today's scientific tongue. Even if you mock at it now, as a scientist, you must have an open mind to accept what will be published in tomorrow's Lancet, and again, have your doubts and question it as well. Just dont accept it as it is, because Lancet says so....

[pito]

gt_ameya, on 21 April 2011 - 10:18 PM, said:

Regarding alternative therapies,

again you are basing your judgement on something you read/saw but dint understand.
Also, antibiotics is not the only way of treating bacteria.

Simple wiki search would tell you about

Phage therapy (practised in India and Soviet Union, before we climbed the antibiotics bandwagon)
Bioactive phytochemicals (something that was and is practised in India)
Use of plasma technology in wound healing.
   to name a few

I am quite sure that within our life times, the vacuum jars and cleansing bodies will make sense in today's scientific tongue. Even if you mock at it now, as a scientist, you must have an open mind to accept what will be published in tomorrow's Lancet, and again, have your doubts and question it as well. Just dont accept it as it is, because Lancet says so....

Those alternative therapies like trowing up .... it will never work...
It has been studied before...
There is no use in trowing up...
Trowing up is a reflex of the body... only when that reflex is needed it has any benefits.
Same with the jars: yes, it might help against muscle probems, but for the rest...


Plasma technology, and how does that beats down bacteria in the body? You mean use it to prevent contamination?

Phages: a lot of disadvantages that make me think it will never be that good.
If it will work: ok, but same thing happens: bacteria adapt...

Phytochemicals: ok, but whats the difference with antibiotics? Its a substance too... isnt it? Or if its not the substance itself that does the work, then the "thing" it causes , a bacteria can also adapt to that... LIke for example free radicals: bacteria can adapt too.

In the end it comes donw to one thing: use different types of treatment and prevent adaptation.

But you are right: we should also look at other therapies, but in the end they wont be the miracle "drug" either. Bacteria adapt to almost anything.

[pito]

gt_ameya, on 21 April 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

Pito,

I think you are making yup your mind on the basis of a One Paper and some documentaries you saw about India. I do agree to the fact that sanitation in India is not up to the global standards and that will definitely lead to more diseases. But then you cant say that majority of antibiotic resistance bacteria originate here/ or the problems start in India.


MRSA, Britain, 1961
Penicillin-Resistant Enterococcus 1983,
vancomycin-resistant enterococcus 1987,
Linezolid-Resistant Enterococcus  1990s,
Clindamycin-resistant C. difficile in New York, Arizona, Florida and Massachusetts between 1989 and 1992
Acinetobacter baumannii in patients at military medical facilities in Iraq/Kuwait region, 2005.

Would you say all these are also results of increasing medical tourism and prevalence of caste system in India?

Regarding the use of antibiotics in poultry and fisheries industries, there is definite need to stricter regulation on its use in the country and all over the world. Just because Europe bans 4 antibiotics (not all) in its feed in 2006, you cant go telling the world to stop using antibiotics.

Also, your blaming Asia for SARS/ Bird flu is insane. When you should be sympathizing with people and trying to help them out, in every way you can, saying that Asia is responsible for manufacturing H1N1 and spreading  it in the world, is insulting your understanding of the genetics.

The very fact that medical tourism is on a high in India answers your doubts of sanitation in hospitals. BTW, hospitals in India do not differentiate amongst patients on the basis of caste or "medical insurance".

Regulation in many areas is something India and China are struggling with at the moment. But you must realise, the expanse of the countries and how difficult it can be send a message across an area of 3,287,263 km2 (107 times bigger than Belgium) and atleast 30 major languages.

You do realize that the "tourists" that come to India for an operation are going to visit the better hospitals? And not the bad ones?
So yes, you have clean/good hospitals too..

And the hospitals dont differentiate amongst patients......... Eum......again: the poor ones... they wont go to the better hospital far away in the big city.....

+ even if the hospitals dont differentiate, the differentiating is happening : patients that cant go to a good hospital because its too far away or because they dont dare too.
And you say the caste system doesnt influence it... comon.... there are some people out there that arent even allowed to leave their own houses/little towns they live in.. if they got caught moving away they risk a beating a being killed...
(and not they are not criminals...)



And yes, there were problems in europe/USA too... but we are dealing with it.. India should have done this too..
They are trying now, but there are still big problems.

And its not about blaming.... there is no point in that.
Its about noticing how bad somethings are and how they should change.
Its clear antibiotics are overused and we need to change that. But some countries still use many of them and keep using them.
And europe banned many more antibiotics before the 4 you are talking about.
Or at least we set limits.

So yes, its all about stopping the massive use of antibiotics.
And also about how you use it: antibiotics are used to defeat an infection, not to prevent one.. at least not when it comes to animals...

[Ameya P]

pito, on 22 April 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

And you say the caste system doesnt influence it... comon.... there are some people out there that arent even allowed to leave their own houses/little towns they live in.. if they got caught moving away they risk a beating a being killed...
(and not they are not criminals...)

Where did you get this information from????

[pito]

gt_ameya, on 22 April 2011 - 01:15 AM, said:

pito, on 22 April 2011 - 12:55 AM, said:

And you say the caste system doesnt influence it... comon.... there are some people out there that arent even allowed to leave their own houses/little towns they live in.. if they got caught moving away they risk a beating a being killed...
(and not they are not criminals...)

Where did you get this information from????

Héhé...

I have family living there + been there myself + I work with some people from India + my father deals a lot with people from India..

I know I am most likely biased on some things , some ideas, they come from my experiences... but still, there are things going wrong...
But I guess I am biased a lot due to certain social "things" going on in India that shocked me (and most of all shocked the people I know that work/live there).

[Ameya P]

pito, on 22 April 2011 - 12:38 AM, said:

Those alternative therapies like trowing up .... it will never work...


Phages: a lot of disadvantages that make me think it will never be that good.

In the end it comes donw to one thing: use different types of treatment and prevent adaptation.

But you are right: we should also look at other therapies, but in the end they wont be the miracle "drug" either. Bacteria adapt to almost anything.

You are very skeptical in allowing anything other than antibiotics in your line of treatment.


I dont think anyone is looking for panacea or will find one. Change is at the heart of the world we live in and we all have to adapt to these changes. its about survival after all

[pito]

gt_ameya, on 22 April 2011 - 01:22 AM, said:

pito, on 22 April 2011 - 12:38 AM, said:

Those alternative therapies like trowing up .... it will never work...


Phages: a lot of disadvantages that make me think it will never be that good.

In the end it comes donw to one thing: use different types of treatment and prevent adaptation.

But you are right: we should also look at other therapies, but in the end they wont be the miracle "drug" either. Bacteria adapt to almost anything.

You are very skeptical in allowing anything other than antibiotics in your line of treatment.


I dont think anyone is looking for panacea or will find one. Change is at the heart of the world we live in and we all have to adapt to these changes. its about survival after all

Eum, but I think we both have different definitions of "antibiotics".

BTW: do you have any idea about what the strongest antibiotic known to man is? And how old it is and still working????? We have thi knowledge for many years (about this antibiotic) and still.. research is so slow , nobody seems to be intersted.


Another thing: how is it with the  softshell turtle?  Have the measurements taken by the governement helped or is it still the same problem that they are destroying it?
(this is also where I get my biased ideas: the way how the Ganges is being used.. and destroyed in fact)